Medrino back to synthetics?

[colonel00]

Did those baselayers have activated carbon or some other form of scent control?

 

[2ski]

That I don't recall. They may have.

 

[Coyote Commander]

http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2012/11/fleece-vs-wool-insulation.html
http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2012/03/does-wool-keep-you-warm-when-wet.html

They work for me? I posted them again, hopefully that does it for you. ??

Read the blogs. Like the author of them, I go on what I experience. Ive used synthetics and merino, and merino keeps me warmer, hands down, dry, damp, or wet, im warmer in it. In fact, the worst experiences comfort wise ive ever had were in the underarmor days and "stop and go" hunting in cold weather. Thought I was gonna die.

Last time I checked, im not a cup of hot water.

 

[Raving Dog]

There is however another side to all this, and it's the reason why many people think that wool retains its insulation when wet, even though it does not. The faster drying time of synthetic insulation (in many cases much faster), creates a feeling of coolness against the skin. The fabric dries by letting the water evaporate faster. The evaporation process creates cooling. That is why we often feel a chill after getting wet in synthetic clothing. The insulation loss from getting wet is about the same, but the faster drying material feels cooler while drying. Wool spreads out that chill over a longer drying period, so it is less noticeable, even though it persists for a longer period of time. The overall amount of cooling from evaporation is the same, it is just that it is concentrated in a shorter period of time with synthetic insulation, so we feel it more.

At least that's my understanding.

Wood Trekker, first off, great tests. Thanks for taking the time to actually create an experiment and gather real data. You make a very good point here. Rate of cooling has a very real impact on the wearer. In hot weather, rapid cooling is beneficial to help cool our bodies when over-heating is the greatest risk. In cold weather (the traditional domain of wool) rapid cooling can be miserable and even dangerous. A slower rate of evaporation allows our bodies to retain more heat and doesn't unnecessarily lower our temperature. Wet clothing itself isn't dangerous, it's cold wet clothing.

Part of the problem some people are having understanding the usefulness of Wood Trekker's test is that he compared thick wool knit toques to a 200 weight fleece. These are insulative layers, not base layers. And 200 weight fleece is a totally different kind of synthetic than most synthetic base layers. It simply doesn't absorb much water. No one wears fleece base layers as you would end up a gross, sweaty, drippy mess. Also, his tests compared completely saturated materials, simulating a dunking in a stream or something like that, not sweat generated by hiking which is much less volume. His tests are useful for analyzing wool insulation in a scenario where you've gotten completely soaked and can't get dry easily. Read his comments after the fleece test to see that Wood Trekker isn't claiming this proves synthetics beat wool.

Another aspect that the testing doesn't really measure is evaporative cooling, since it is only 30 minutes long. There is a slight hint that soaked wool is beating soaked 200 weight fleece past 30 minutes, which would be in keeping with Wood Trekker's comments. (Besides the old saying "wet wool insulates" is based on wool vs. cotton, not wool vs. fleece)

Wood Trekker, what was the weight of the water absorbed by the fleece? The wetted wool absorbed over twice it's own weight in water, and I doubt the fleece would have even doubled in weight. If a dunking is in your future, I would heartily recommend synthetic layers. Possibly a good lesson for rainy days/high humidity conditions?

For my two cents, synthetic base layers are simply uneconomic. They can be a bit cheaper up front (unless you're buying Patagonia Capilene), but I have to throw them out after each season because the smell becomes offensive to me (I have a moderately sensitive nose due to chemotherapy). I don't believe merino is scent-free, it eventually smells too, but it doesn't smell like some unbathed hobo last wore it when it is fresh out of the dryer like my synthetics all do. A little wet dog smell with new merino is tolerable to me.

Obviously all fabrics provide benefits and drawbacks. I love my synthetic boxer briefs for the lack of chafing and quick drying. I love my synthetic fabric pants for durability, water repellency and quick drying after hiking through damp grass and brush. I love my merino base layers in the fall for lack of stink and good balance between wicking and insulation. I also pack an extra merino shirt to change out of after hiking up the hills in the pre-dawn hours. This system works for me, and each hunter should figure out which combination of fabrics works for their bodies, their conditions, and their hunting styles.

Thanks again Wood Trekker for actually gathering some real data.

 

[Wood Trekker]

Thanks Raving Dog. Much appreciated. For anyone interested in the subject, check out Comfort and Moisture Transport in Lightweight Wool and Synthetic Base Layers (http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/497...weight-wool-and-synthetic-base-layers-2-2-meg). It doesn't exactly deal with warmth, but shows tests on drying time of base layers.

 

[Becca]

Read the blogs. Like the author of them, I go on what I experience. Ive used synthetics and merino, and merino keeps me warmer, hands down, dry, damp, or wet, im warmer in it. In fact, the worst experiences comfort wise ive ever had were in the underarmor days and "stop and go" hunting in cold weather. Thought I was gonna die.
.

This has been my experience as well. While I admit I didn't read every post in this thread, I did skim it (playing catch up around here after being out of town a bunch the last month) and while I appreciate the science and testing, ultimately my own personal experience is going to be what I base my decisions on. In the 5 years I wore them before switching, Synthetics were slow to dry, felt clammy to me, and stunk something awful (which didn't wash out, no matter what I tried). Merino wool has kept me warm even when wet, cool in hot temps, and doesn't pick up a funk even when I wore the same base layer for 19 days in the Brooks range last summer Hunting sheep. What works for me isn't necessarily what works for everyone else, which is why I am glad there are many options available. But I have no plans to switch back to synthetics from merino wool, likely ever. In fact, I am such a believer in merino that pants are the only non-wool item I typically wear for clothing (not talking coats, vests or raingear here). I wear merino socks, underwear, sports bra, long and short sleeve shirts and base layer bottoms. I have donated or given away most of the synthetics I used to have, and haven't missed them a bit.

 

[Matt W.]

I agree. I'll never go back to synthetics. My favorite merino pieces are the thin T shirts from KUIU and the Llano from First Lite. I like the Chama Hoody, but would prefer they add a Llano hoody. My experiences have been that I like thicker wool when not moving much and the thinner stuff in layers when on extended active trips.

 

[AZ Ron]

I prefer merino to synthetics. I'll use synthetics on day hunts or possibly on hunts where I'm likely to tear a shirt up on prickly plants.

Prefer the non funk of merino as well as the performance. Won't be wearing synthetic on any backpacking hunts, or even non hunting backpacking trips. Granted, merino isn't as durable, but just the way it is.

 

[KMD]

I've been swapping winter baselayers between pure merino stuff and Patagonia's merino 2 baselayer, which is like ~80% merino and ~20% synthetic. The Patagonia merino (blend) is very comfortable against the skin, moreso than any 100% merino layer from Kryptek, Kuiu, or Smartwool. Haven't noticed much difference in heat retention between them...

For underbritches, ExOfficio is the bomb!

 

[jquarnberg]

KUIU just announced that they will be coming out with a new base layer. Nuyarn merino. The claimed benefits from nuyarn on their site sound like they would make an awesome hunting base layer product. Excited to see what this is about.

 

[PA 5-0]

kuiu just announced that they will be coming out with a new base layer. Nuyarn merino. The claimed benefits from nuyarn on their site sound like they would make an awesome hunting base layer product. Excited to see what this is about.

shrek ????!!!!

 

[jquarnberg]

Shrek? Can you tell us why this new base layers suck yet?

 

[MTbowhunter36]

Shrek? Can you tell us why this new base layers suck yet?

Too funny!

 

[2ski]

http://youtu.be/xYXAvdxbplk

Prolite just put up a new video yesterday about merino keeping you warmer or not.

 

[Josh Wright]

Check this Nuyarn site out:

http://nuyarn.co.nz/benefits/

I know KUIU is having this coming to their merino line, but this is from a site not found on KUIU. Looks pretty good and opens up all kinds of apparel possibilities.

 

[gmajor]

I use first lite merino boxers under my capilene long underwear bottoms, and I'm pretty happy with that. I wear a merino top. I'll never wear synthetic boxers again.