Meateater wolf podcast vs Kifaru Wolf Podcast

[woody6899]

With Wyoming, it was a money grab. If we introduced the wolves the state would get all the federal dollars for biologists. Millions a year for “management”. The “wolf hybrids” that we where killing in 94 where already making a comeback in Wyoming.
I know it’s just my ignorant redneck opinion but Wyoming’s wolves have already spread to Colorado so would this just be Colorado trying to get there piece of the fed pie?


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[sneaky]

Can you expand on what you mean by "invasive species"? It's my understanding that gray wolves are native to Colorado, but were extirpated in the first half of the 20th century. Thanks.

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Not these wolves. These are Canadian grey wolves, not the timber wolves that were native and much smaller than these. Those were the ones that were extirpated. You can't "reintroduce" a non- native species. These things will make short work of the much smaller wolves down in NM and AZ once they make their way down naturally.

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[buffsmoker]

Not these wolves. These are Canadian grey wolves, not the timber wolves that were native and much smaller than these. Those were the ones that were extirpated. You can't "reintroduce" a non- native species. These things will make short work of the much smaller wolves down in NM and AZ once they make their way down naturally.

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I've heard both sides of this. Do you have something that definitively shows they are different? Thanks.

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[mcseal2]

If Colorado is unwilling to allow reasonable control methods for the predators they already have, how does adding another apex predator help anything?

I'm no expert and I'm willing to be educated, this just seems like a terrible terrible idea to me.

 

[dreamingbig]

Can you expand on what you mean by "invasive species"? It's my understanding that gray wolves are native to Colorado, but were extirpated in the first half of the 20th century. Thanks.

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You must be an anti-hunter. You REALLY don’t want to go down this route. And introducing wolves will play havoc on your elk herd and your hunting opportunities.


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[sneaky]

I've heard both sides of this. Do you have something that definitively shows they are different? Thanks.

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Is your Google broke? Try finding an unbiased opinion on wolves.

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[buffsmoker]

You must be an anti-hunter. You REALLY don’t want to go down this route. And introducing wolves will play havoc on your elk herd and your hunting opportunities.


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Or.....I feel that the most effective way to fight against this reintroduction effort is to display an educated, factual point of view. Knowing historical facts and avoiding false claims can only help the cause. Putting forward an argument that our opponents can rip holes through will only weaken that argument. Thanks though.

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[buffsmoker]

Is your Google broke? Try finding an unbiased opinion on wolves.

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I'm not interested in opinions. I'm looking for historical facts.

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[dreamingbig]

Or.....I feel that the most effective way to fight against this reintroduction effort is to display an educated, factual point of view. Knowing historical facts and avoiding false claims can only help the cause. Putting forward an argument that our opponents can rip holes through will only weaken that argument. Thanks though.

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I have anecdotal evidence of how it has affected elk populations in Washington, Idaho and Montana. Boots on the ground research. I am not going to listen to some biologist that tries to tell me differently. They can have my quarter and call somebody else who will buy their ocean front property in Arizona.

Reestablishing wolves is an anti hunting weapon to end hunting seasons. Pure and simple. Good luck to all the small rural towns that depend on hunters dollars.


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[sneaky]

I'm not interested in opinions. I'm looking for historical facts.

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Yet, you are unwilling to put in any effort yourself. Got it.

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[buffsmoker]

Yet, you are unwilling to put in any effort yourself. Got it.

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I've definitively put in the effort. But I've found a lot of conflicting information. Happen to have a link for that graphic?

And to be clear.....I'm just trying to educate myself. I'm definitely against reintroduction....or introduction (whatever you want to call it). But I see a lot of emotionally charged arguments around this topic. I'd rather know the facts than rely on rhetoric.

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[sneaky]

That link was from the northern Rocky wolf page on wikipedia. Take anything on there with a grain of salt, especially the section on wolf recovery that is the same thing posted on all the pro wolf pages as well

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[slick]

The sub-speciation thing is always an interesting topic. Why the emphasis on ‘really’ Sneaky? What are your thoughts based in fact about that? Edit: saw the picture you posted- hard lines on something like sub-speciation always conjure speculation (to me) and make me question that. Think of putting whitetails from Alabama in NW MT, they would survive and adapt and grow to whatever that habitat is able to support. Whitetails from Alabama can certainly breed with MT whitetails, and most people would be hard pressed to tell the difference. It’s a murky argument on both sides.

As far as I’m concerned- if you pulled wolves from the Great Lake States or you pulled wolves from Alberta/Yukon we would have the same exact scenario going on now. The same arguments would be made, the same ungulate populations would exist as they do now. I guess there’s no way to know that, but it seems that the “timber wolves” cause the same perceivable problems as “Canadian wolves”... there’s nothing more super special about ones north of the border. They are all dogs that make their living by chasing and killing the same things that they we all like to kill and eat and maybe put on our walls.

A big dog is 145ish lbs, juvenile dogs will disperse up to hundreds of miles, they are all capable of breeding with one another, they all form packs, they all pursue critters that present an opportunity- and they are good at it. Do I think Colorado needs a reintroduction? No, because the GYA states populations have been expanding for a couple decades and have made their way to Colorado already. They’ll get there on their own, but people need results now and can’t wait for wolves to recolonize Colorado on their own over long periods of time. I don’t think that it should be left up to the people of CO to decide based on a vote as I think most people don’t have a clue, but I also absolutely believe wildlife are for the people- all people. It sucks that hunters foot the majority of the bill to then be impacted the most, but their voice is no more important than anyone else’s when it comes to these matters (votes) unfortunately.

I think it really strikes an emotional side of people and that’s what you found with both podcasts. I wished the Bio wouldn’t skirt around shit, wolves absolutely hammer elk in some areas, and people see the first hand effects of that. But for people to go back to the same drainage year after year for 10-15 years and expect to see the same exact ungulate populates (or anything) for that matter is absurd. Forests change, ungulate populations change, so do predator populations. That basin might not be able to support X number of elk you saw 10 years ago anymore. Did wolves impact it? Maybe? Maybe not? As others have said it’s not a 1 factor shoe fits all scenario... there IS more than 1 factor at play at all times. To try and keep things as complex as predator-prey dynamics or predator-predator competition/exclusion or density-dependent or independent variables and blame them all on wolves isn’t as simple as blaming it all on wolves. It’s a constantly changing landscape and populations of all things fluctuate.

 

[Okhotnik]

I think both podcasts brought good points to the table, I believe wolves are amazing animals that are very good at what they do. At the end of the day I’m on the Snyder side of things, Colorado and the surrounding states will take a huge hit from the introduction. Also Diane couldn’t convince me that wolves haven’t directly affected population numbers.

What do you find amazing regarding wolves?

The well documented fact that for centuries they like to just kill stuff for enjoyment and not consume it?

 

[Okhotnik]

There is a reason the bear population is boominggggg in CO it’s a direct cause of ballet initiatives. Wolves will never get a season in CO. Gradual dispersal is much different the direct multi introduction

Colorado will end up like Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan, Washington and Oregon

lots of wolves, less tags for elk, deer and moose and fewer hunting seasons

Enjoy the suck

Coloradans will start putting in for non res tags in WY ID and MT to hunt elk

ooh the irony

 

[Okhotnik]

The sub-speciation thing is always an interesting topic. Why the emphasis on ‘really’ Sneaky? What are your thoughts based in fact about that? Edit: saw the picture you posted- hard lines on something like sub-speciation always conjure speculation (to me) and make me question that. Think of putting whitetails from Alabama in NW MT, they would survive and adapt and grow to whatever that habitat is able to support. Whitetails from Alabama can certainly breed with MT whitetails, and most people would be hard pressed to tell the difference. It’s a murky argument on both sides.

As far as I’m concerned- if you pulled wolves from the Great Lake States or you pulled wolves from Alberta/Yukon we would have the same exact scenario going on now. The same arguments would be made, the same ungulate populations would exist as they do now. I guess there’s no way to know that, but it seems that the “timber wolves” cause the same perceivable problems as “Canadian wolves”... there’s nothing more super special about ones north of the border. They are all dogs that make their living by chasing and killing the same things that they we all like to kill and eat and maybe put on our walls.

A big dog is 145ish lbs, juvenile dogs will disperse up to hundreds of miles, they are all capable of breeding with one another, they all form packs, they all pursue critters that present an opportunity- and they are good at it. Do I think Colorado needs a reintroduction? No, because the GYA states populations have been expanding for a couple decades and have made their way to Colorado already. They’ll get there on their own, but people need results now and can’t wait for wolves to recolonize Colorado on their own over long periods of time. I don’t think that it should be left up to the people of CO to decide based on a vote as I think most people don’t have a clue, but I also absolutely believe wildlife are for the people- all people. It sucks that hunters foot the majority of the bill to then be impacted the most, but their voice is no more important than anyone else’s when it comes to these matters (votes) unfortunately.

I think it really strikes an emotional side of people and that’s what you found with both podcasts. I wished the Bio wouldn’t skirt around shit, wolves absolutely hammer elk in some areas, and people see the first hand effects of that. But for people to go back to the same drainage year after year for 10-15 years and expect to see the same exact ungulate populates (or anything) for that matter is absurd. Forests change, ungulate populations change, so do predator populations. That basin might not be able to support X number of elk you saw 10 years ago anymore. Did wolves impact it? Maybe? Maybe not? As others have said it’s not a 1 factor shoe fits all scenario... there IS more than 1 factor at play at all times. To try and keep things as complex as predator-prey dynamics or predator-predator competition/exclusion or density-dependent or independent variables and blame them all on wolves isn’t as simple as blaming it all on wolves. It’s a constantly changing landscape and populations of all things fluctuate.

? another pro wolf intro supporter it seems

So refresh my memory as to what happened to elk and moose populations when the y introduced wolves to YNP in the 90's again?

Another rambling non sequitur?

sheesh

 

[sneaky]

The sub-speciation thing is always an interesting topic. Why the emphasis on ‘really’ Sneaky? What are your thoughts based in fact about that? Edit: saw the picture you posted- hard lines on something like sub-speciation always conjure speculation (to me) and make me question that. Think of putting whitetails from Alabama in NW MT, they would survive and adapt and grow to whatever that habitat is able to support. Whitetails from Alabama can certainly breed with MT whitetails, and most people would be hard pressed to tell the difference. It’s a murky argument on both sides.

As far as I’m concerned- if you pulled wolves from the Great Lake States or you pulled wolves from Alberta/Yukon we would have the same exact scenario going on now. The same arguments would be made, the same ungulate populations would exist as they do now. I guess there’s no way to know that, but it seems that the “timber wolves” cause the same perceivable problems as “Canadian wolves”... there’s nothing more super special about ones north of the border. They are all dogs that make their living by chasing and killing the same things that they we all like to kill and eat and maybe put on our walls.

A big dog is 145ish lbs, juvenile dogs will disperse up to hundreds of miles, they are all capable of breeding with one another, they all form packs, they all pursue critters that present an opportunity- and they are good at it. Do I think Colorado needs a reintroduction? No, because the GYA states populations have been expanding for a couple decades and have made their way to Colorado already. They’ll get there on their own, but people need results now and can’t wait for wolves to recolonize Colorado on their own over long periods of time. I don’t think that it should be left up to the people of CO to decide based on a vote as I think most people don’t have a clue, but I also absolutely believe wildlife are for the people- all people. It sucks that hunters foot the majority of the bill to then be impacted the most, but their voice is no more important than anyone else’s when it comes to these matters (votes) unfortunately.

I think it really strikes an emotional side of people and that’s what you found with both podcasts. I wished the Bio wouldn’t skirt around shit, wolves absolutely hammer elk in some areas, and people see the first hand effects of that. But for people to go back to the same drainage year after year for 10-15 years and expect to see the same exact ungulate populates (or anything) for that matter is absurd. Forests change, ungulate populations change, so do predator populations. That basin might not be able to support X number of elk you saw 10 years ago anymore. Did wolves impact it? Maybe? Maybe not? As others have said it’s not a 1 factor shoe fits all scenario... there IS more than 1 factor at play at all times. To try and keep things as complex as predator-prey dynamics or predator-predator competition/exclusion or density-dependent or independent variables and blame them all on wolves isn’t as simple as blaming it all on wolves. It’s a constantly changing landscape and populations of all things fluctuate.

Having grown up in the south I can assure you, deer down south are smaller bodied than their northern counterparts. Could they eventually adapt? Probably. Damn things are like roaches, they can live anywhere. I think there will never be a season for hunting wolves in Colorado, but they'll still be plenty of them killed by CPW just like they do with bears. Out of sight, out of mind, the public will never know. Hikers need to start having to pay $100 a year to support these grand schemes they are coming up with that hunters are funding now. Would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth if that happened. It's only fair though. Now all they pay for is parking at trailheads. The outdoor industry doesn't support a tax like Pittman Robertson on outdoor gear. They've brought it up before and it's never been accepted. Time for them to pony up, or shut up.

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[slick]

? another pro wolf intro supporter it seems

So refresh my memory as to what happened to elk and moose populations when the y introduced wolves to YNP in the 90's again?

Another rambling non sequitur?

sheesh

Absolutely not. But they are on the landscape for the foreseeable future. I just don’t cry in my Wheaties about it.

Well, they had an elk population that was naive to wolves, they also allowed lots of late season “extra” opportunity (my words not FWP’s) tags, that I believe was unsustainable, the Feds brought wolves in, they had winters, and they shot a shit ton of elk. That’s what happened. Now the elk herd is 1/3 of what it was in the mid 90s. But it sure as shit isn’t 1500 (to quote Brian from Kifarucast)

 

[Gobbler36]

I listened to MeatEater wolf podcast, I like the podcast for the most part, but these guys almost tap dance around predator issues imo I’ve heard it w/ Grizzlies, Mountain Lions and Wolves.... they almost seem worried to me about offending someone or something.. I really question if they support managing predators. It’s a little to “politically correct” imo on predator issues.

I’ll listen to Kifaru’s tomorrow.

Colorado will be in huge trouble w/ wolves. There will never be a season...ever.... in fact I’ll be shocked in 15 years if any predator hunting/management is even allowed in Colorado. Imagine for a moment if no management was being done in Idaho, Wyoming and Montana....

Colorado can’t manage predators now... wolves will run a muck and neighboring states will suffer as well.

And it’s just not the greenies and libs anymore. Every year that goes by, more “hunters” stop supporting trapping/predator management. It makes me sick

I can see this at times as well
I often feel the issue behind predators is states being handcuffed and not being able to manage predators in their own state along with the constant moving goal post of the numbers they expect to have

 

[Gobbler36]

I love how the bio on meat eater said wolves will kill other wolves in their area to protect their resource, but it’s not ok for humans to kill all the wolves in the area to protect our resource? She was obviously biased and even contradictory at times. This whole liberal ecosystem balance BS really pisses me off, humans are part of the ecosystem, they treat it as if us and nature are separate...

I was thinking most of the time she was talking that yeah right things aren’t going to manage themselves like Alaska or the Lewis and Clark days because ungulates still have a place to retreat where as now we’ve taken up every bit of winter range and leave deer and elk trapped to face the wolves or death by semi truck