Meat in cooler question

[Newt]

Since I started hunting years ago, when it was not cool enough outside I always quarter my animals and put them in a cooler with something frozen to cool them off. Over the years it has been whatever I had, whether it was frozen jugs or just plain ice.

Many times its ice, and more often than not its pack it to the brim with ice and let the meat sit for up to a week. For me, this has always produced the best tasting meat I have ever had.

Last time I got an elk it was the first day of the hunt(Saturday). It was the second day before I got all the meat up the hill, boned out, and in the coolers. I then went and got as much ice as possible and that meat sat in the ice/water mix until the following Saturday when I processed it at home.

One of the guys I went with was pretty adamant that I was ruining the meat by doing that. However, it's the way I have always done my whitetails so I could not see the difference. Turned out I was correct. That bull elk fed us for an entire year and was the most delicious venison I have ever eaten.

So it is interesting to me about how I have read a lot on here about how people are afraid to get their elk soaking wet - whether it be dunked in a creek to cool down, or stored in an ice bath like mine.

Why is this? Are there some stories that can be shared about bad experiences with soaking meat like that?

What really got me to thinking is how people talk about when you bone an elk out then you end up with the potential for a lot of "crusted" meat that has to be trimmed away. I had to bone my elk out, and I did not have to trim any crusted meat away when I got home and started processing.

 

[Lark Bunting]

The three things to avoid bacteria in the meat are heat, moisture and dirt. I've never had an issue using game bags to keep the meat clean and I use chunks of 2x4 in my cooler with frozen jugs to keep the quarters clean. In fact, I stored quarters for several days like this when I got home with a digital thermometer in the cooler and had it remain in the upper 30's until I was ready to process the meat.

 

[5MilesBack]

I've never had any crust issues with boning out the meat, but every quartered one has had to be trimmed. As for the water........I grind most of my elk, and normally cook burgers rare. So I don't really want to introduce anything to the equation that could add any bacteria to it.

 

[jspradley]

You wont help the meat by soaking it in water, you also probably wont ruin thicker cuts but it still makes it look pretty dang gross and has potential to spread around any gut bacteria.

Soaking doesnt draw blood out of the meat, it pops the cell membranes on the surface of the meat which causes them to release their fluids into the water making the water look bloody.

 

[Newt]

You wont help the meat by soaking it in water, you also probably wont ruin thicker cuts but it still makes it look pretty dang gross and has potential to spread around any gut bacteria.

Soaking doesnt draw blood out of the meat, it pops the cell membranes on the surface of the meat which causes them to release their fluids into the water making the water look bloody.

I suppose I have never seen it make my cuts look gross???

I should state that I have never purposefully soaked meat with the intention of drawing blood out, just with the intention of keeping it ice cold till I can process it.

I should also state that, while I have done this for years, I have never once gotten ill or anyone who has eaten any of the meat that has been soaked in water.

Am I just a rarity? Has anyone actually gotten sick from meat that has been soaked in iced water?

 

[RaggedHunter]

Just because the meat sits in water does not necessarily mean it is going to be ruined. I just don't think that it is best practice if it can be avoided..

I agree with the statement above that the things that need to be avoided and in order of importance are 1. Heat, 2. Moisture, 3.Dirt.

The main concern with letting meat sit in a cooler of water would be the possibility of spreading any unwanted bacteria that may have only been on a small portion of the meat whether it be from gutting, or cleaning, or packing out.. to get introduced to all of the meat.

Do I think it is the end of the world if meat sits in water, absolutely not. If that's what it takes to get it cool then by all means, but I don't like the idea of letting it sit in water for longer than need be. If I can help it or avoid it, I like to get the meat up out of the water, or leave the drain open and let the water drain out.

If I do have to submerge meat in a creek to get it cooled off, I will put it in contractor bags, then submerge it. I only use the contractor bag if I have to submerge it, otherwise its just game bags.

 

[RaggedHunter]

As for your comment about eating meat like that for years and never getting sick.. I'm sure we've all eaten meat that probably wasn't perfectly cared for while getting it out. But if you can take small precautions to avoid adding any risk then why not?

For example, I have friends that push cattle all summer up on the Forrest. For years they would just fill up their water bottles straight out of the streams. Any time I rode with them, they would tease me for filtering my water, and I would wonder how in the world they never got sick. Their only precaution was that "they only filled from certain streams, cuz those streams were clean". they did that for years and none of them ever got sick..

And then last year, in about a 1 week period every single one of them ended up with giardia.. needless to say, they all carry filters in their saddle bags now.

You could eat meat for years and never get sick.. But why take any chances if there are known things that you can improve or avoid?

 

[Newt]

I guess I am really curious to see if the whole soaking meat thing has actually gotten someone sick, or if it is one of those myths that it will. It's not a myth that untreated water contains stuff that will make you sick.

I get everyone has their own preference on how to handle their meat, I respect that. I am not trying to persuade anyone to abandon their ways. I for one am not.

Purley from a logical standpoint(not scientific) bacteria is going to spread regardless if there is water surrounding meat or not. Temperature seems to play the biggest role in bacteria growth.

Like the example above about the water, just because you cannot see anything does not mean it's not there. As soon as the meat is cut it is exposed to bacteria in the air. Being soaked in ice water does not introduce something that is not already there. So the time period that meat is still wet, before it crusts over, there is enough moisture present for bacteria to grow.

Thinking out loud here, its a proven fact that water is a good thermal conductor. In fact, it soaks heat very quickly. One thing bacteria must have to thrive is warmth. So completely surrounding meat with ice water would cool it quicker than just having it in a low temp environment. Quicker cooling = less bacteria growth.

 

[Cockeye]

I guess I am really curious to see if the whole soaking meat thing has actually gotten someone sick, or if it is one of those myths that it will. It's not a myth that untreated water contains stuff that will make you sick.

I get everyone has their own preference on how to handle their meat, I respect that. I am not trying to persuade anyone to abandon their ways. I for one am not.

Purley from a logical standpoint(not scientific) bacteria is going to spread regardless if there is water surrounding meat or not. Temperature seems to play the biggest role in bacteria growth.

Like the example above about the water, just because you cannot see anything does not mean it's not there. As soon as the meat is cut it is exposed to bacteria in the air. Being soaked in ice water does not introduce something that is not already there. So the time period that meat is still wet, before it crusts over, there is enough moisture present for bacteria to grow.

Thinking out loud here, its a proven fact that water is a good thermal conductor. In fact, it soaks heat very quickly. One thing bacteria must have to thrive is warmth. So completely surrounding meat with ice water would cool it quicker than just having it in a low temp environment. Quicker cooling = less bacteria growth.

I think your right I have buddy that ice soaks his elk and antelope ever year and it come out fantastic. I decide to do muley last year and it turn out to be the best sage muley I’ve ever eaten.

 

[Trial153]

Cold and dry is the ticket. You will never go wrong with that

 

[Cockeye]

Well what about all the elk & bear hunters that put their meat in the creek till they can get it pack out. Ice cold mountain creek same difference.

 

[RaggedHunter]

You're correct, It's no secret that untreated water contains stuff that will make you sick.. took a real genius to figure that one out.

It's also no secret that water has an undeniable affect on bacteria growth. Just like every living thing on this planet, bacteria needs water to live.

There are a lot of factors that influence the actual amount of growth that will take place, temperature being the most critical. keeping the meat cool keeps bacteria growth slowed. Outside of not having any other way to get meat cool, in no way can or will soaking meat in water be of benefit to the meat.

1. Water encourages bacteria growth.
2. Water spreads bacteria from the surface to the rest of the meat.

Bacteria is introduced to meat in many ways, Removing water from the equation does not eliminate bacteria. But it is a step in reducing and controlling factors that are within our control.

If you like to soak your meat in water, then knock yourself out. But don't try and justify why it's the right way to do it when the only thing you have as "evidence" as to why it isn't bad is the fact that it hasn't made you sick..

You clearly weren't asking questions to try and improve your process or better understand the reasoning for not soaking meat in water... You clearly just wanted to argue and say "well it hasn't made me sick, so it must be fine"..

If that's not the perfect definition of ignorance...

Cockeye- as for your question about guys leaving elk and bears in creeks until they pack them out.. That is a good way to keep meat cold, I prefer to put the meat in a contractor bag before submerging it. Keeps it cool and dry. Win Win

 

[Newt]

You're correct, It's no secret that untreated water contains stuff that will make you sick.. took a real genius to figure that one out.

It's also no secret that water has an undeniable affect on bacteria growth. Just like every living thing on this planet, bacteria needs water to live.

There are a lot of factors that influence the actual amount of growth that will take place, temperature being the most critical. keeping the meat cool keeps bacteria growth slowed. Outside of not having any other way to get meat cool, in no way can or will soaking meat in water be of benefit to the meat.

1. Water encourages bacteria growth.
2. Water spreads bacteria from the surface to the rest of the meat.

Bacteria is introduced to meat in many ways, Removing water from the equation does not eliminate bacteria. But it is a step in reducing and controlling factors that are within our control.

If you like to soak your meat in water, then knock yourself out. But don't try and justify why it's the right way to do it when the only thing you have as "evidence" as to why it isn't bad is the fact that it hasn't made you sick..

You clearly weren't asking questions to try and improve your process or better understand the reasoning for not soaking meat in water... You clearly just wanted to argue and say "well it hasn't made me sick, so it must be fine"..

If that's not the perfect definition of ignorance...

Cockeye- as for your question about guys leaving elk and bears in creeks until they pack them out.. That is a good way to keep meat cold, I prefer to put the meat in a contractor bag before submerging it. Keeps it cool and dry. Win Win

You're incorrect. I was absolutely trying to better understand other thoughts on why they are adamant about not getting the meat wet or soaking it. If you go back to my original post you will see the question stated very clearly. It was not to argue.

The arguing only arises when someone feels that the other one is wrong for doing such and such. I do NOT feel it is wrong to not get your meat wet. I feel it is perfectly acceptable. In fact, when it is cold outside I simple dress and skin my deer and let them hang. Then, after a few days, I will cut a quarter off and take it directly inside to process. I don't always submerge my meat in water.

The fact is, water will not transfer bacteria from the surface to the rest of the meat. Unless meat is completely dehydrated, there is plenty of moisture in it to facilitate the transfer of bacteria.

My intent is to see if there is actual evidence of someone who soaked their meat in ice water and it turned it bad. I understand some do not like the look of the surface of the meat that has been soaked, but from my experience, it is only the very surface that gets brown and the meat under it is the same as if it had never been soaked.

In an effort to educate myself I just found out a very interesting thing. It is actually harder for bacteria to spread in plain water versus a more viscous liquid(for instance that slime that is on meat). In the viscous liquid bacteria are able to spread quicker and farther. My take away from that is bacteria spreads quickly enough on its own, soaking it in water does not facilitate the spread any quicker - unless your talking about soaking it in a stagnate pool of warm water

 

[jspradley]

As I said it probably won't ruin it but soaking it also isn't doing the meat any favors. So at best there is no benefit to soaking meat in ice water.

Here in TX a LOT of folks believe that you have to literally soak the meat in water for several days, changing the water every day or so to "draw out the blood" and that it "takes the gamey flavor out" which is 100% a myth based on seeing the meat turn gray and the water turning red so SOMETHING good has to be happening. I have heard that it's also a thing in Hawaii.

If you go into a good butcher shop and ask them how long they soak their prime ribeyes for you are probably gonna get some funny looks and those folks know their meat.

 

[Gulfgoose]

Waterfowl we will soak in a saltwater mix in the fridge for a few days but never leave deer, hogs, etc in water. Good hard frozen ice layer, meat, ice, meat ice. Then pull the drain plug on the cooler and have it at a slight incline to drain. Helps if you use a bag of ice taken out of your own deep freeze as it is likely colder than any you can buy.

 

[Newt]

As I said it probably won't ruin it but soaking it also isn't doing the meat any favors. So at best there is no benefit to soaking meat in ice water.

Here in TX a LOT of folks believe that you have to literally soak the meat in water for several days, changing the water every day or so to "draw out the blood" and that it "takes the gamey flavor out" which is 100% a myth based on seeing the meat turn gray and the water turning red so SOMETHING good has to be happening. I have heard that it's also a thing in Hawaii.

If you go into a good butcher shop and ask them how long they soak their prime ribeyes for you are probably gonna get some funny looks and those folks know their meat.

I agree. I have never done it myself to "benefit" the meat. It's just always been a matter of convenience.

Typically butcher shops have a lot nicer processing facility than hunters do who are hours and days away from home. They have no need to have meat in chest coolers - in water or not.

I found this article interesting. Not the exact topic I was trying to find out, but it does help a little. While the process of 'wet aging' is not the same as meat sitting in ice water, it is not any different as far as bacterial growth is concerned. If anything, bacteria will grow faster in the 'wet aged' process than the ice water bath. Regardless, dry aging does enhance the flavor, but more meat is lost due to dehydration.

 

[jspradley]

Yeah it is much easier to wet age if you live in a hot climate or dont have dry aging facilities but there's a big difference in wet aging and making raw meat soup like the locals here like to do.

A little water touching meat isn't the end of the world, I do like gulfgoose said and tip the side of the cooler so water drains out and replace the ice as needed to age the meat on the bone for a week or so before processing.

This is total conjecture but I have a feeling the soaking thing came about in back in the days when coolers sucked ass so ice would melt pretty quick and you'd have a nice yummy meat, interstitial fluid and ice slurry and as there wasn't a buccees on every corner to get cheap ice (my fellow Texans know what I mean) every day the concept of "soaking" to "draw blood out of the meat" was born. After that, as Texans are wont to do, it became the holy gospel and the only way to do things and you're a gottdang communist if you don't believe it, because Texas.

(My little history lesson is on the internet now so it must be true)

 

[Newt]

Yeah it is much easier to wet age if you live in a hot climate or dont have dry aging facilities but there's a big difference in wet aging and making raw meat soup like the locals here like to do.

A little water touching meat isn't the end of the world, I do like gulfgoose said and tip the side of the cooler so water drains out and replace the ice as needed to age the meat on the bone for a week or so before processing.

This is total conjecture but I have a feeling the soaking thing came about in back in the days when coolers sucked ass so ice would melt pretty quick and you'd have a nice yummy meat, interstitial fluid and ice slurry and as there wasn't a buccees on every corner to get cheap ice (my fellow Texans know what I mean) every day the concept of "soaking" to "draw blood out of the meat" was born. After that, as Texans are wont to do, it became the holy gospel and the only way to do things and you're a gottdang communist if you don't believe it, because Texas.

(My little history lesson is on the internet now so it must be true)

Interesting. Personally, I started doing it without the knowledge of others doing it, or the knowledge of others thoughts against doing it. I was ignorant to others thoughts(before the internet became the source of truth....lol).

That's why I found it so interesting when I started catching onto the idea that a lot of guys on here think its really bad to submerge the meat in ice water. It would be one thing if I got the impression that it's just not the preferred way of doing things, but I got the direct impression that people really feel that it is potentially hazardous for some reason. That's why I am curious as to what the reasoning is, and if it's just a myth/wives tale, or if someone has actually experienced something from it.

 

[CMF]

For those who avoid getting the meat wet, how do you store meat in a cooler with ice?
I've always put my whitetail in the ice/water mix prior to last year, but after reading about the bacteria spreading by water I've started putting the meat in garbage bags and keeping it from direct contact with the ice and water, but the meat seems to stay wet from its own moisture in the garbage bag. So it seems there wouldn't be any benefit.
I've considered putting a wire rack on blocks with the ice on bottom and meat on the rack, but wonder how well the temperature would maintain at the top of a standard cooler?

 

[*zap*]

Stuff stays cooler with ice above and below it.