Maven RS 1.2 2.5-15x44 vs S&B Klassik 3-12x42

[Marbles]

I need to put a scope on my Tikka 308, it has a 16.5 inch barrel and the plan is to load 178 gr ELD-X, estimate is MV of about 2400 fps, this will drop below 1800 fps at about 430 yards and needs 3.1 mils of elevation. It will be holding above 1600 fps until 590 yards and needs 5.2 mils of elevation. I have access to a 1000 yard range, so even if I'm not going to shoot at game that far, I would like to try my hand at hitting steel for both practice and fun.

I have the Klassik (with P3L illuminated reticle), and really like the low light performance, however mine does not have the dialing turret, meaning I need to spend a few hundred to make it work for me now even for hunting (when I got it MPBR exceeded my shooting ability).

The Klassik will max out elevation at 4.8 mils with a turret installed. The advantage to it is if I can see my target (without projecting artificial light onto it), I can legally shoot it in Alaska, with a moon, shooting well after dark is possible with the Klassik.

The Maven, mounted to the Tikkas native rail, will give me enough elevation to dial for 1000 yards.

Maven is 26.4 ounces, the S&B is 21.16 ounces. I don't think 5 ounces is enough to influence a decision by much.

I cannot easily justify keeping the S&B and getting the Maven. If I could get my hands on another SWFA 3-9 I would take that as I like my current one, but illumination would be nice given legal night hunting.

How good is the Maven's glass at night? Is it usable under a half moon?

Any general thoughts on one versus the other? Maven gives the lower end of the operating temp range at -4, I don't think S&B gives an operating temp range. This scope will easily see use in -20, and possible -60. Anyone see a reason to be concerned here? I speculate it will be fine.

I know @Formidilosus has used both, I think dialing is more valuable than additional low light ability, but I am curious as to his take on the two.

I'm open to other recommendations, but the below might help save some time and hopefully prevent a dumpster fire, though it may just start it.

The Trijicon Credo 2-10x36 will suffer in low light and has an overly complex reticle for my liking.
The Trijicon Tenmile 3-18x44 has an overly complex reticle and costs more than the Maven.

Any SFP scope is a non-starter, same for any scope that is not mil/mil or only has a duplex reticle. The NF SHV 4-14x50 is pushing weight, objective size, and low end magnification all above what I would like. The NF NX8 2.5-20x50 is pushing weight, has a high end magnification that is way passed what I want (a top end of 10x would be nice), has a complex reticle, and costs a lot more, so it is out.

Leupold and Vortex are non-starters.

 

[Marbles]

Guess it's time to go tie a porkchop around my neck so the dog will at least play with me.

The more I think about it, I think the Maven is the clear choice simply because of the erector travel.

 

[Formidilosus]

The Maven RS1.2 is the option for what you want. The S&B is a good scope, but isn’t fitting this.

 

[RockAndSage]

Any general thoughts on one versus the other? Maven gives the lower end of the operating temp range at -4, I don't think S&B gives an operating temp range. This scope will easily see use in -20, and possible -60. Anyone see a reason to be concerned here? I speculate it will be fine.

OP, given that you're in Alaska, you might want to take heed of what you shared here on Maven saying its operating temps are -4.

Scope manufacturers use lubricants on some of their moving parts - greases, specifically, and they're generally used on magnification assemblies. Some scope manufacturers actually use carefully selected greases to control how stiff the magnification ring is when you spin it - and the tougher it is to spin in normal temps, the worse it will be in cold temps.

Greases have a very wide range of specs and usability, and that usability also depends upon the energies that a given machine is using. A grease rated to -4F in a car is nearly useless on a clock or bicycle at those temps.

Depending on the grease Maven uses, they may very well be telling us that their magnification assembly or other parts will be too stiff to safely manipulate when temps get below -4. It's definitely worth contacting them about.

 

[ljalberta]

Interesting. Never noticed that operating temperature aspect. I have a day or two every year in the -30s where I’m holding a rifle rethinking my decisions. Will be interesting to see if there are any issues.

 

[Formidilosus]

OP, given that you're in Alaska, you might want to take heed of what you shared here on Maven saying its operating temps are -4.

Scope manufacturers use lubricants on some of their moving parts - greases, specifically, and they're generally used on magnification assemblies. Some scope manufacturers actually use carefully selected greases to control how stiff the magnification ring is when you spin it - and the tougher it is to spin in normal temps, the worse it will be in cold temps.

Greases have a very wide range of specs and usability, and that usability also depends upon the energies that a given machine is using. A grease rated to -4F in a car is nearly useless on a clock or bicycle at those temps.

Depending on the grease Maven uses, they may very well be telling us that their magnification assembly or other parts will be too stiff to safely manipulate when temps get below -4. It's definitely worth contacting them about.

Interesting. Never noticed that operating temperature aspect. I have a day or two every year in the -30s where I’m holding a rifle rethinking my decisions. Will be interesting to see if there are any issues.

I have used several RS1.2’s extensively below 0° F, and down to -26° F. Nothing really changed, maybe the parallax was a touch tighter.

 

[sndmn11]

The temp part might be illumination related.

 

[Marbles]

The temp part might be illumination related.

The RS1, which does not have illumination, has the same temp specs listed.

OP, given that you're in Alaska, you might want to take heed of what you shared here on Maven saying its operating temps are -4.

Scope manufacturers use lubricants on some of their moving parts - greases, specifically, and they're generally used on magnification assemblies. Some scope manufacturers actually use carefully selected greases to control how stiff the magnification ring is when you spin it - and the tougher it is to spin in normal temps, the worse it will be in cold temps.

Greases have a very wide range of specs and usability, and that usability also depends upon the energies that a given machine is using. A grease rated to -4F in a car is nearly useless on a clock or bicycle at those temps.

Depending on the grease Maven uses, they may very well be telling us that their magnification assembly or other parts will be too stiff to safely manipulate when temps get below -4. It's definitely worth contacting them about.

Thank, I have done a touch more digging.

Regardless of why, S&B does not list operating temp ranges for the Klassik series (nor Zenith), and NF does not list them for any of their scopes that I can tell. So, short of testing there is no way to compare. S&B does list operating and storage temps for the Exos and Polar lines with a lower end operating temp of -13, which is hardly worthy of note and certainly not worth more than double the price of the Maven. The PMII scopes with the low end of operating range being -51 F would be worth considering, and have decent features at a glance. Paying $3,100 for PMII 3-12x50 is hard to swallow and lots of other scopes get used up here.

I did email Maven asking what the reason is for the temp range. Forms experience is reassuring and -20 to -30 is the coldest temp I commonly see as I live near the coast. As long as it still works to aim, I can live with it no longer being adjustable in extreme cold. Just dial it to MPBR before going out and set the magnification to about 4-6x.

The bigger concern to me is many materials become brittle in the cold, and everything is more prone to breaking.

Edit: Trijicon lists the Tenmile as having an operating temp down to -20 F.

 

[Marbles]

Damn it, other than weight the PMII 3-12x50 looks like an almost perfect scope. There is a lot of range time or a suppressor or two contained in the price difference between it and the Maven though. Looks like two of the best reticles available (GenII or P4FL) are available in them. Now I wish I hadn't looked.

 

[Kimber7man]

To my eyes, the Klassik 3-12 is better, more clear glass than the new Maven RS1.2. Haven't had to dial over 4 mils though.

 

[Marbles]

To my eyes, the Klassik 3-12 is better, more clear glass than the new Maven RS1.2. Haven't had to dial over 4 mils though.

Good to know, if it was not $350 to get a turret on it, I would just live with limited dialing ability as I really like the scope.

I deeply regret not getting the 1-8x42 Exos when it was available, which is making me really consider getting the PMII as it seams like large zoom ranges are the future and I'm stuck in the past and don't like them.

 

[atmat]

I’ve owned both. I really like the SB but it sounds like you’ll need more than 4.8mil for steel.

Go with the Maven.

 

[Dobermann]

I need to put a scope on my Tikka 308, it has a 16.5 inch barrel and the plan is to load 178 gr ELD-X, estimate is MV of about 2400 fps, this will drop below 1800 fps at about 430 yards and needs 3.1 mils of elevation. It will be holding above 1600 fps until 590 yards and needs 5.2 mils of elevation. I have access to a 1000 yard range, so even if I'm not going to shoot at game that far, I would like to try my hand at hitting steel for both practice and fun.

My .02 is that 1000 yards with a 16.5 inch 308 might be some people's definition of 'fun'. It might also just be 'work'. So one option might be to go with something that will do most of what you're wanting to actually do with that 16.5.

For better light-gathering ability for your moon case, the ZP5 could be worth a look - designed by some of the same folks behind the PMII - but it's far heavier.

While not in the same class as the ZP5 (even people at risk of being called 'glass snobs', who commonly only recommend Tangents and ZCOs regularly say that the ZP5 should be considered as 'alpha glass'), the Maven is dang good - noticeably better than the SWFA 3-9 for my eyes.

I don't have experience with the Klassik - and I know your question was expressly about this - but I'm impressed by the Maven; granted, I don't have as much time behind it as Form and others here.

 

[Marbles]

Maven says the controls could get stiff in colder conditions than -4, no big deal.

They don't expect to have the mil version back in stock until June, said demand has been higher than they predicted. Looks like Rokslide can make an impact on scope demand.

 

[JollyRoger]

Maven says the controls could get stiff in colder conditions than -4, no big deal.

They don't expect to have the mil version back in stock until June, said demand has been higher than they predicted. Looks like Rokslide can make an impact on scope demand.

That’s good news about the demand being higher than expected. My hope is that they, and other scope manufacturers start seeing the benefit of reliability and smart reticle choices.

 

[Dobermann]

They don't expect to have the mil version back in stock until June, said demand has been higher than they predicted. Looks like Rokslide can make an impact on scope demand.

Wow. Now I'm kicking myself for only getting one to check out ... not the three I needed!

 

[cricket1974]

love my klassic