Match bullets vs early hunting bullets

[AZ_Hunter]

I have used this analogy before, but I’ll repeat myself here.

Heavy for caliber match bullets work differently than bullets of yesteryear because they are longer.

If you imagine two empty beer cans, one is standard size and the other is 18” tall, and step on them smash them, it takes longer to smash the 18” one.

The longer heavy for caliber match bullets may start to frag just as quickly as an old school soft point, but because of their length, there is much more bullet left by the time it has penetrated into the vitals and completes its fragmentation. Then of course the higher mass, means there is more material to frag and therefore increasing terminal effect.

Same thing applies comparing varmit bullets to heavy for cal match bullets.

 

[Southern Lights]

It doesn’t. The 178gr ELD-M does, and the 174gr ELD-VT really does.

I can't comment on the other bullets. But the 178AMAX (ELD-M), is phenomenal in .30 cal. Almost makes too big of a mess.

 

[Southern Lights]

Is this with a 140 eld m? That exact thing is what I didn’t like about the 185 Berger.

Hoping the 208 ELDm upsets more quickly.

I have only shot smaller fallow with the 140 ELD-M. They are a small bodied deer (I'm usually culling does or yearlings not larger bucks). At closer range I just noticed they penetrate great, but don't put things down as fast as the 130SST from the 270 which explodes internally. The 270 is traveling almost 400fps faster at muzzle though. It's just a different kettle of fish.

However I don't have any doubt the 140s can do the business and would happily use them vs. any "hunting" bullet in the 6.5 without a second thought. I also shoot them in matches so you can use one bullet for training and hunting.

 

[Lou270]

Where are you drawing these beliefs from? This last one particularly is ridiculous- no, only at high impact velocities do bullets upset with a very short neck length. And, lots of bullets have longer permanent TC’s than other bullets (TMK vs. Berger VLD). What you are writing is factually not true.






I’m not sure I can decipher what you were trying to say here- but in legit ballistics testing and live tissue; the same caliber, at the same jacket thickness and same impact velocity- the longer (read: heavier) bullet penetrates deeper. It simply has more bullet to fragment and more bullet mass to continue.

I don’t know if we are talking past each other or what but I am not talking about neck length. I am saying a bullet does not slowly expand during penetration. This is very old fudd lore along with my bullet is going too fast to expand. Neck length can be longer but that does not mean once a bullet starts deforming it is some gradual process. And, not all bullets have long neck lengths even at longer ranges. Hollow points (incl tipped) may as they need to fill the cavity, build pressure, and burst. OTMs can be much longer as may need yaw. Normal softpoints still have short necks because they already are “filled” with lead though typically have a higher impact velocity requirement

As to your second item you are missing the point. Let us take 6.5 cm. You take a 120 tipped match bullet and run 3000 fps. That bullet may give insufficient penetration for your purpose. You take a 150 tipped match bullet at 2600 fps and gives sufficient penetration. Now shoot the 120 in a 6.5 grendel at 2400 fps and you probably get sufficient penetration again with that bullet though maybe smaller wound. Impact velocity matters more than SD in soft bullets is my point. This reduction in velocity comes naturally when you use a heavy for caliber bullet.

Lou

 

[Teaman1]

LISTEN — Why Smaller Calibers May Be Better for Big Game Hunting (Part 2) – The Experience Project

the-experience-project.com

Great listen, just finished part 1 and 2.
Enjoy listening to Form on shoot 2 hunt.
Leaning hard towards the 220 eld x

 

[letrbuck]

It doesn’t. The 178gr ELD-M does, and the 174gr ELD-VT really does.

How is the 174 on game? Too much? Do you have a good sample size yet?

 

[Formidilosus]

How is the 174 on game? Too much? Do you have a good sample size yet?

Most will find it way too much.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

This is also likely why Hornady, for ex, will not recommend something like their eldm 7prc load for hunting.

but they do:

225 gr ELD® Match - Hornady Law Enforcement

The 300 PRC 225 ELD® Match TAP Precision® was designed and adopted to fulfill a specific need within the Department of Defense by increasing hit probability and providing exceptional terminal performance from 0 – 2000 yards. This cartridge is an effici...

www.hornadyle.com

178 gr ELD® MATCH TAP PRECISION® - Hornady Law Enforcement

Hornady® 300 WIN MAG 178 gr. ELD® MATCH TAP PRECISION® ammunition was designed as an improvement on the 178 gr. A-MAX TAP PRECISION® load by incorporating the new ELD® Match bullet.

www.hornadyle.com

 

[Lou270]

but they do:

225 gr ELD® Match - Hornady Law Enforcement

The 300 PRC 225 ELD® Match TAP Precision® was designed and adopted to fulfill a specific need within the Department of Defense by increasing hit probability and providing exceptional terminal performance from 0 – 2000 yards. This cartridge is an effici...

www.hornadyle.com

178 gr ELD® MATCH TAP PRECISION® - Hornady Law Enforcement

Hornady® 300 WIN MAG 178 gr. ELD® MATCH TAP PRECISION® ammunition was designed as an improvement on the 178 gr. A-MAX TAP PRECISION® load by incorporating the new ELD® Match bullet.

www.hornadyle.com

What does deparrment of defense have to do with hunting?

 

[swavescatter]

What does deparrment of defense have to do with hunting?

I haven't clicked those links, but my guess is that both industries are interested in the efficient killing of mammals.

 

[northernalpine]

Using the eld M this fall, so trying to see for myself, but trying to understand the difference between some match bullets and early hunting bullets in terminal performance.

The other folks have put out good insight already and there are piles of material to read or listen to. I would add ELD-M or similar bullets that fragment early after penetration are incredibly efficient in damaging internal soft tissue. I think technically the ELD-X is considered a delayed expansion compared to the ELD-Ms, with an additional 2-4” of penetration before expansion/fragmentation, but are comparable in performance.

I will also offer a tangible note that, in my experience, animals taken with match bullets require additional scrutiny when processing meat, due to the fragmenting nature. ELD-Xs, while closer to a hybrid of match and traditional bullet, still fragment at high velocities; the four animals I shot inside of 200 yards last year had copper shards spread further than expected but the terminal efficacy was equally impressive.

I imagine you’re going to have a great season if you get on animals

 

[OneGunTex]

Heavy for caliber match bullets work differently than bullets of yesteryear because they are longer.

If you imagine two empty beer cans, one is standard size and the other is 18” tall, and step on them smash them, it takes longer to smash the 18” one.

The longer heavy for caliber match bullets may start to frag just as quickly as an old school soft point, but because of their length, there is much more bullet left by the time it has penetrated into the vitals and completes its fragmentation. Then of course the higher mass, means there is more material to frag and therefore increasing terminal effect.

I'm still not totally understanding, because for my 6.5 I see 140g ELD-M and 140g Cor-Lokt available.
I get your analogy, and I definitely understand the difference between these and a bonded bullet or a Partition, and the reason for "heavy for caliber."
But if both are 140g and not bonded, won't they have similar performance or am I missing something?

 

[Ozarkansas]

I'm still not totally understanding, because for my 6.5 I see 140g ELD-M and 140g Cor-Lokt available.
I get your analogy, and I definitely understand the difference between these and a bonded bullet or a Partition, and the reason for "heavy for caliber."
But if both are 140g and not bonded, won't they have similar performance or am I missing something?

in my (limited) experience, there’s not a ton of difference in performance between a lot of thin-jacketed soft points and match bullets. The reason those 6.5s and 7s had such good reputations is likely because they were some of the only calibers shooting high SD bullets at the time. Back in the old days you had guys shooting 87 grain 250 savages, 150 grain 30-06s, and if they hunted with a .223 they likely used 55-62 grain bullets.

A non-bonded 85-100 grain .243 bullet is going to be devastating whether it’s an ELD-X or a gameking BTHP from 60 years ago. And the cheap 140 grain 6.5mm soft points I’ve used make wounds that would be hard to distinguish from what I see on this site with ELD-Ms.

I think the only real difference is effective range; the higher BCs and -in some cases- lower expansion threshold allows you to reliably kill from longer range with the newer match bullets.

 

[Lou270]

I'm still not totally understanding, because for my 6.5 I see 140g ELD-M and 140g Cor-Lokt available.
I get your analogy, and I definitely understand the difference between these and a bonded bullet or a Partition, and the reason for "heavy for caliber."
But if both are 140g and not bonded, won't they have similar performance or am I missing something?

They can have similar performance. Assuming a bullet has a means to expand (exposed lead, poly tip, etc) The main difference from a jacket standpoint is the match bullet typically has a thin straight taper jacket. For ex, it may be .025 thick front to back. The thin uniform jacket will have less imperfections to introduce dispersion as the bullet spins towards the target. There is no “bullet construction” for hunting built into this type of bullet (does not mean it wont work). A “hunting” cup and core will typically have a tapered jacket - for ex .025 at tip that tapers to .040. The intent of the taper is to halt expansion so the bullet maintains weight and a “mushroom” shape. The core can still pop out of these bullets so bonding or a partition prevent that if that is what you want. Depending on impact velocity and what is being penetrated an expanding match bullet may perform same as a “hunting” style bullet. The thickened jacket is mainly there to survive high velocity impacts and was introduced when cartridge muzzle velocities were averaging over 2500 fps.

The original jacketed bullets were simple thin jacketed cup and core bullets like match bullets and there were high SD (220 .30, 156 6.5, 175 7mm). When velocity got stepped up by rounds like 30-06 various things were tried like a thick straight taper but this was not satisfactory either as did not perform well at longer ranges (ie no expansion). Eventually bullets like the corelokt were introduced with thin jackets at tip and some serrations to promote expansion at long range with a thicker jacket at base and most modern cup and cores are some variation on the theme.

Lou

 

[199p]

Using the eld M this fall, so trying to see for myself, but trying to understand the difference between some match bullets and early hunting bullets in terminal performance.

Does a thicker jacket at the nose or the empty jacketed space in the nose (Berger) allow the bullet to penetrate before fragmenting?

Early bullets were said to be “splashy” so the partition and other hunting designs came to be. I’ve never used any early bullets and have only used a Berger 185 grain classic hunter (didn’t like for deer).

How is terminal performance improved with match bullets vs the early ones?
Not arguing the use of match bullets, just trying to learn more about why match bullets work the way they do.

the important bit is with match you stick to heavy for caliber i mean i remember 15 years ago with the old 162amax out of 708s and 7mags were the most common in nz and i ran them in my 1st 7-375r but they were too explodie up close to use but a 140accubond at 200y had the same point of impact.

 

[Jmgates09]

Believe it was the vld. 300 wsm HSM load in 2017

Yes HSM use the vld my experience with the load has been different from either 75 or 250 yards it's drops them in there tracks most times have never had a deer run more than 30yds now I use federal 185 hybrid hunters get better accuracy than the HSM load with vld but performance on game I can't tell a difference

 

[Jmgates09]

I have no experience with elk but on deer so called match bullets work great have used
140 eldm in 6.5 creed
147 eldm and 156 berger in 6.5 prc
168 vld n 162 eldm in 7wsm
185 vld n HH in 300wsm
Also don't know if they are considered match but out of ARs have used
77gr hpbt in 5.56 and 123gr in 6.5 grendal
This upcoming deer season gonna use 115vlds in 25wssm

 

[FredH]

I am old enough to have used some of the early hunting bullets. The bronze points, Winchester had a hollow point that was a flat bronze color and the early Sierra Gamekings. They pretty much did what modern match bullets are doing, get in a bit and come apart. In fact a lot of early hunting bullets (Hornady) would brag in their bullet ads that the bullets would not exit and all the energy would be utilized to kill the animal quickly. However many people gravitated to bullets that would expand and penetrate, leave an exit hole which a great many hunting bullets today are designed to do. I personally have a preference for this type of bullet. I don't have any problem with the recoil generated by most cartridges used for elk and deer hunting. I especially find it odd that anyone would consider a 7x57 or 7-08 too hard in the recoil department. That said I am shooting the 162 gr ELDX in a 7MM RM this year and Hornady's 123 gr. HPBT in a Grendel, I expect dead animals.