Masculinity and Caliber Choice

[TaperPin]

It cracks me up that the small rifle crowd thinks guys that like larger calibers only shoot and hunt with the biggest rifle they own, or that we’ve never hunted with a 243, or never seen animals taken with 243, 25-06, or 270. The gun safe of every hunter I’ve ever met in Wyoming is full of rifles of all sizes. If you grow up in a western state and enjoy hunting, every year you’re exposed to a number of friends and family that killed something each year with a huge assortment of cartridges and ranges - it’s no secret what gun was used, where the animal was hit, and how far it went. This is repeated a hundred thousand times a year throughout the west - there’s no brain surgery required to see a 270 kills better than a 243, or a 300 mag kills better than a 270. To claim only the small caliber crowd has seen the light and been blessed with good judgement is far fetched. Lol

 

[Wyo_hntr]

I shot a cow last year with the 147. 2 shots frontal in the shoulder 2 shots broadside in the mid to high shoulder and 1 in the liver. All shots were 200 to 300 yards. A big 30 cal would have stopped her. The 147 has worked great for me on deer but not on elk. It failed to break big bones and continue through the elk.

You recovered this animal and observed two impacts to the scapula and both bullets did not pentrate?

That's incredible.

 

[bluesulphur]

I use what has given me the best results for the given species and I don't really care what other people do. The same debate has been happening for years and it's not going to end anytime soon.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

I shot a cow last year with the 147. 2 shots frontal in the shoulder 2 shots broadside in the mid to high shoulder and 1 in the liver. All shots were 200 to 300 yards. A big 30 cal would have stopped her. The 147 has worked great for me on deer but not on elk. It failed to break big bones and continue through the elk.

How deep did they penetrate? And did you take any pictures?
Not trying to be a dick, but I’ve heard this story 100% more times than I’ve seen evidence of “splashy” bullets.

 

[Pharmseller]

A big 30 cal would have stopped her.

That’s a bold statement.

Does a 300 Weatherby Mag with 180 gr Partitions count as a big 30? Here’s why I ask:



I shot the bull on the right with my 300 Wby Mag, 180 Partitions, maybe 100 yards, broadside. Zipzip through and through in the pocket tight to the shoulder. He was unimpressed, so he started walking off. Second shot, maybe 2 inches from the first, also zipzip, through and through. Damn. Heading for really thick cover (Oregon Cascades, Mt. Washington Wilderness Area) so the next shot was a spiner. I’m not a fan of neck shots, I’m excitable and the kill zone is small, but this one knocked the peewaddle out of him.

My brother killed the bull on the left with a single bullet from his 30-06, 180 green box Core-Lokt. Funny, he was aiming behind the shoulder and missed high and left, a perfect spine shot. Dropped right now.

I gave up on saying what caliber or cartridge is gonna do thus and so. Too much experience.

Edit to add, opening day, the bulls were standing about 20 feet apart. I’ll shoot this one, you shoot that one. Really, really common for Cascades hunting.





P

 

[maxx075]

I have smol pp, so I use big boomstick, aim is terrible so I compensate with big boolet.

 

[elkguide]

Over my years guiding elk hunters, I was much happier to see a hunter come in to camp with their beat-up old .270 or .30-06 then I was seeing them come in to camp with their shiny, new magnum. Before our hunters rode into the backcountry, we took them to the range. We had a big hunter, (6'2" - 225#s) sit at the bench with his new .300 RUM that was unbraked and he had bought it on his drive cross country to camp. He couldn't keep 3 shots on paper at 100. The boss looked at me and told me to give it a try. The hunter was right, the gun was off. All 3 of the bullets that I fired were 2" high and 1" to the right and touching. Now I'm a little guy, 5'8" @160#s but, I shoot a lot. He shot his elk with another hunter's 30-06.

I've seen elk taken with most every caliber from .25-06 to the big Lazeronis and if the bullet went in the right place, the elk died. I personally like to see a hunter use "enough gun," and from my experience, in most hunting situations the elk aren't always broadside at 100 yards, so if the hunter can shoot a .300 Win Mag, that is what I like to see.

Me, I shoot a lot and before my boating accident, I had a "few" calibers to choose from. I have taken whitetails and mule deer with 10 different calibers over the years. Lately, I find myself grabbing my favorite .300 Win Mag for everything from the coyote last week to the 5 whitetails that I shot last fall as well as the cow elk that I shot. Pretty similar to the previous few years too. Since I travelled to 3 states to hunt last year, I always took a backup rifle (one trip it was a 7mm08, one was a 30-06 and another was a .284 Win) but I only carried one of those other rifles one day. For me, the .300 Win Mag does it all.

 

[MCS]

You recovered this animal and observed two impacts to the scapula and both bullets did not pentrate?

That's incredible.

Yes they penetrated just under the front shoulder.

That’s a bold statement.

Does a 300 Weatherby Mag with 180 gr Partitions count as a big 30? Here’s why I ask:

View attachment 700396

I shot the bull on the right with my 300 Wby Mag, 180 Partitions, maybe 100 yards, broadside. Zipzip through and through in the pocket tight to the shoulder. He was unimpressed, so he started walking off. Second shot, maybe 2 inches from the first, also zipzip, through and through. Damn. Heading for really thick cover (Oregon Cascades, Mt. Washington Wilderness Area) so the next shot was a spiner. I’m not a fan of neck shots, I’m excitable and the kill zone is small, but this one knocked the peewaddle out of him.

My brother killed the bull on the left with a single bullet from his 30-06, 180 green box Core-Lokt. Funny, he was aiming behind the shoulder and missed high and left, a perfect spine shot. Dropped right now.

I gave up on saying what caliber or cartridge is gonna do thus and so. Too much experience.

Edit to add, opening day, the bulls were standing about 20 feet apart. I’ll shoot this one, you shoot that one. Really, really common for Cascades hunting.





P

I've shot a few elk in the shoulder with 208eldm and 215 bergers out of a 300 win. Every time the round broke both front shoulders and put the the elk on the ground. A 6.5 might have worked but in my experience they do not. There is always a time when a shot is not perfect and stuff doesn't work the way we want. That's why I'll chose the bigger caliber. Having a bigger bullets has more impact and does more damage.

There are many variables to every shot and animal. Perfectly places shots work most of the time but sometimes they don't. When I screw up and make a bad shot or the bullet does not perform. The bigger caliber has a better chance of fixing my mistake or the bullets failure.

 

[Ringbill27]

Well back in the day bullet tech wasn’t what we have today. So lighter bullets didnt hold up. Bigger bullets deeper penetration.

With today bullet Selection and technology its much less an issue, but most people hate change. So go big or go home.

My largest chambering is 30-06 which I picked up for elk hunting. And my go to deer rifle is 7.62x39 ruger. The sweet spot for a one spot shop cartridge for would the 7mm08.

 

[Pharmseller]

Yes they penetrated just under the front shoulder.

I've shot a few elk in the shoulder with 208eldm and 215 bergers out of a 300 win. Every time the round broke both front shoulders and put the the elk on the ground. A 6.5 might have worked but in my experience they do not. There is always a time when a shot is not perfect and stuff doesn't work the way we want. That's why I'll chose the bigger caliber. Having a bigger bullets has more impact and does more damage.

There are many variables to every shot and animal. Perfectly places shots work most of the time but sometimes they don't. When I screw up and make a bad shot or the bullet does not perform. The bigger caliber has a better chance of fixing my mistake or the bullets failure.

Maybe lower-recoiling cartridges result in fewer mistakes? Maybe?

 

[Pharmseller]

Well back in the day bullet tech wasn’t what we have today. So lighter bullets didnt hold up. Bigger bullets deeper penetration.

With today bullet Selection and technology its much less an issue, but most people hate change. So go big or go home.

My largest chambering is 30-06 which I picked up for elk hunting. And my go to deer rifle is 7.62x39 ruger. The sweet spot for a one spot shop cartridge for would the 7mm08.

If the only rifle I had was a 7mm-08 with 140 Partitions I’d be just fine.




P

 

[Formidilosus]

Yes they penetrated just under the front shoulder.

To be absolutely positive- you had two 6.5mm 147gr ELD-M’s penetrate about 4” and stop? Do you have pictures of the wounds?

I've shot a few elk in the shoulder with 208eldm and 215 bergers out of a 300 win. Every time the round broke both front shoulders and put the the elk on the ground. A 6.5 might have worked but in my experience they do not. There is always a time when a shot is not perfect and stuff doesn't work the way we want. That's why I'll chose the bigger caliber. Having a bigger bullets has more impact and does more damage.

There’s a 300+ page thread with more than 40 elk killed by 77gr bullets from 223’s from near contact to 803 yards- lots/most going through the “shoulders”, a 20+ page thread of 6.5’s doing the same, a 20+ page thread of 6mm’s also.

As for those two bullets- 208gr ELD-M and 215gr Berger I have killed, and seen killed quite a few elk with those two from 30cal mags- most were shot multiple times in the chest before they fell. Close to half had 3-4 rounds in their chest by the time they fell.

 

[RockAndSage]

Over my years guiding elk hunters, I was much happier to see a hunter come in to camp with their beat-up old .270 or .30-06 then I was seeing them come in to camp with their shiny, new magnum. Before our hunters rode into the backcountry, we took them to the range. We had a big hunter, (6'2" - 225#s) sit at the bench with his new .300 RUM that was unbraked and he had bought it on his drive cross country to camp. He couldn't keep 3 shots on paper at 100. The boss looked at me and told me to give it a try. The hunter was right, the gun was off. All 3 of the bullets that I fired were 2" high and 1" to the right and touching. Now I'm a little guy, 5'8" @160#s but, I shoot a lot. He shot his elk with another hunter's 30-06.

I've seen elk taken with most every caliber from .25-06 to the big Lazeronis and if the bullet went in the right place, the elk died. I personally like to see a hunter use "enough gun," and from my experience, in most hunting situations the elk aren't always broadside at 100 yards, so if the hunter can shoot a .300 Win Mag, that is what I like to see.

Me, I shoot a lot and before my boating accident, I had a "few" calibers to choose from. I have taken whitetails and mule deer with 10 different calibers over the years. Lately, I find myself grabbing my favorite .300 Win Mag for everything from the coyote last week to the 5 whitetails that I shot last fall as well as the cow elk that I shot. Pretty similar to the previous few years too. Since I travelled to 3 states to hunt last year, I always took a backup rifle (one trip it was a 7mm08, one was a 30-06 and another was a .284 Win) but I only carried one of those other rifles one day. For me, the .300 Win Mag does it all.

I've heard stuff like this over, and over, and over again from actual guides, especially elk guides.

I can't remember ever once hearing one of them recommend or be "happy with" someone showing up with a .223 or .243, and almost all of them say they have problems with guys bringing big magnums. The pattern of seeing real-world results professionally all season seems close to "bring as much gun as you're competent with, not more, not less."

 

[MCS]

Maybe lower-recoiling cartridges result in fewer mistakes? Maybe?

My 300 win with a muzzle brake recoils less then a 7mm-08. The last elk I shot with it was at 680 yards. That would be unethical with a 7mm-08. The only time I had a problem was when I decided to use a 6.5

 

[JohnJohnson]

The last elk I shot with it was at 680 yards. That would be unethical with a 7mm-08.

A 7mm-08 at that distance still has ~1800 fps velocity, why would it be unethical?

 

[MCS]

To be absolutely positive- you had two 6.5mm 147gr ELD-M’s penetrate about 4” and stop? Do you have pictures of the wounds?




There’s a 300+ page thread with more than 40 elk killed by 77gr bullets from 223’s from near contact to 803 yards- lots/most going through the “shoulders”, a 20+ page thread of 6.5’s doing the same, a 20+ page thread of 6mm’s also.

As for those two bullets- 208gr ELD-M and 215gr Berger I have killed, and seen killed quite a few elk with those two from 30cal mags- most were shot multiple times in the chest before they fell. Close to half had 3-4 rounds in their chest by the time they fell.

I don't have pictures of the wounds. I have used the 147 on 2 deer and they worked great at ranges from 50 to 350 yards but on that elk they were a failure. I recovered the 208 from the last elk I shot with them. It mushroomed perfectly and dropped the elk in place.

 

[Formidilosus]

I don't have pictures of the wounds. I have used the 147 on 2 deer and they worked great at ranges from 50 to 350 yards but on that elk they were a failure. I recovered the 208 from the last elk I shot with them. It mushroomed perfectly and dropped the elk in place.

So here’s the issue- no one that claims that a bullets splashed on a shoulder and failed to penetrate the depth of a squirrel has any pictures, any video- anything if “failure”. But, like you above, they seem to have that for the magnums that they say work.

There is about 4 inches of meat and 1/8” of pliable bone a bullet has to get through to penetrate the scapula of an elk- yet all these bullets “blow up” and can’t make it through, yet they somehow make it through the same meat and bone of deer without issue.

 

[MallardSX2]

What does a slug gun say about me? Lol

 

[MCS]

A 7mm-08 at that distance still has ~1800 fps velocity, why would it be unethical?

I just did the math with a 160 grain accubond at 2600 fps muzzle velocity that's 1466fps and 763 lb of energy at 680 yards. A 300 win mag with a 215 at 2840fps muzzle velocity is 1993 fps and 1896lb at 680 yards. The 7mm-08 is unethical at that that range. I can do the math with other bullets if you would like.

 

[elkguide]

What does a slug gun say about me? Lol

Either bigger is better or dead right here.