Maintaining healthy joints

[rogerdoger]

Mobility plus strength equals no joint pain.

I dramatically overhauled my leg training about 5 years ago, incorporating lots of old school Poliquin style training (now popularized by Ben Patrick aka knees over toes guy). Instead of trying to be as strong as possible, the goal became unlocking more range of motion with the same weight/load, and becoming legitimately flexible.

Most dudes have a flat-out sad amount of flexibility, and spend all their time strength training with very limited ranges of motion.

Within a few months the aches in my knees, hips, feet after long hikes/hunts was gone entirely and didn't come back until this past year when I had to take 3 months off due to a fractured knee cap snowmobiling.

Incorporating the same stuff as rehab and almost back to 100%...it really does work.

Skip the pills and injections, toxic to your body long term, eats cartilage alive, and doesnt address the underlying issue.

Get strong and get flexible

Agree with you on this for sure. I like Adriell Mayes workout, incorporates a lot off strength mobility training. He has kettlebell only workouts so I only need a few bells to work my whole body. This has really helped my lower back pain.

 

[mtnbound]

Soreness on impact, such as a hard step or jump, and occasional extended aches/stiffness. It can happen with either knee, but only occurs in my left hip. I work out 3 to 4 times a week--40 minutes on the treadmill, rower, or the airdyne, 20 minutes of weights, and 10 minutes of stretching.

I would shift into more strength training and scale back some of the cardio. Still do cardio, but look to do 3 days of strength and 1 day of cardio. You can do full-body training or break it into typical splits. For knee stability, be sure to do a good amount of hamstring work. If you have any muscle or strength imbalances, consider adding assistance exercises to help balance things out. Use your cardio days as recovery days, so work those at a Zone 2 pace.

 

[ianpadron]

Agree with you on this for sure. I like Adriell Mayes workout, incorporates a lot off strength mobility training. He has kettlebell only workouts so I only need a few bells to work my whole body. This has really helped my lower back pain.

Oh yeah the knee/back connection is a strong one.

Seems to me that the more strength and mobility a fella has in his posterior chain (hammies+glutes), the fewer back and knee issues he's got.

Recent study I read indicated that RDLs are equal in efficacy to Nordic Hamstring curls in terms of preventing injuries in athletes...pretty awesome to see the research catching up with well known strength and conditioning mantras.

 

[HairyScandinavian]

I don't have an answer for you OP but working on figuring it out myself. I just started some supplements today and last week got some steroid injections in both knees for a temporary hedge for an upcoming hunt. Hoping to pickup some nuggets from your thread. I definitely need to lose some weight.

 

[rogerdoger]

Oh yeah the knee/back connection is a strong one.

Seems to me that the more strength and mobility a fella has in his posterior chain (hammies+glutes), the fewer back and knee issues he's got.

Recent study I read indicated that RDLs are equal in efficacy to Nordic Hamstring curls in terms of preventing injuries in athletes...pretty awesome to see the research catching up with well known strength and conditioning mantras.

Good to know on the RDL’s, I like doing single leg as it works my balance as well.

One thing a PT told me was your quads and hamstrings are in constant tug of war, if one is stronger it will pull your pelvis and start causing all sorts of issues.

On muscle that gets over looked and cause issues is the psoas. Not sure if it would cause knee issues but definitely hip and lower back.

 

[mtnbound]

Recent study I read indicated that RDLs are equal in efficacy to Nordic Hamstring curls in terms of preventing injuries in athletes...pretty awesome to see the research catching up with well known strength and conditioning mantras.

That's until you actually try doing multiple sets of 10 Nordic curls, then the difference becomes very obvious.

 

[mtnbound]

On muscle that gets over looked and cause issues is the psoas. Not sure if it would cause knee issues but definitely hip and lower back.

I found that my leg adductors were weak and would cause knee pain. I started doing banded leg adductor exercises, and my knee pain began to diminish. Additionally, increasing hamstring work, such as high-rep banded leg curls, also contributed to reducing knee pain.

 

[ianpadron]

That's until you actually try doing multiple sets of 10 Nordic curls, then the difference becomes very obvious.

The working hypothesis was that Nordics were superior. When RPE was controlled for, there was no difference between the 2 exercises. That's why we do research.

This was with performance athletes too, not gen pop.

In a former life chapter I was a strength coach and have a BS in Kinesiology, so I understand what I'm reading.

 

[Skookum_25]

Collagen powder in the protein shake has seemed to reduce some tweaks for me.


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[mtnbound]

Oh yeah the knee/back connection is a strong one.

Seems to me that the more strength and mobility a fella has in his posterior chain (hammies+glutes), the fewer back and knee issues he's got.

Recent study I read indicated that RDLs are equal in efficacy to Nordic Hamstring curls in terms of preventing injuries in athletes...pretty awesome to see the research catching up with well known strength and conditioning mantras.

Can you point me to that study?

 

[Poser]

I've employed Nordic curls on a few training cycles before and they are "hard" but I have perceived much more direct benefit from Good Mornings and Reverse Hypers.

I've also been less impressed with RDLs. They'll certainly cause soreness if you haven't been doing them, but, soreness alone isn't an indicator of meaningful training contribution. When I'm doing lots of other activities/conditioning etc outside of the gym (backpacling, rucking, conditioning, hunting, snowboarding etc), I'll cut my deadlift volume to a single, heavy set of 3 once a week and just go for a maintenance weight for months at a time. I'll usually employ RDLs as backoff volume following the deadlift sets and find that I can continually add weight to the bar for weeks at a time on these sets, sometimes getting within 25-30 lbs of my deadlift weight. Despite being "heavy" and "feeling good" to get some stretch, I don't perceive much of a contribution elsewhere. In fact, once adapted to them, I don't even feel them much lat that day or the next day. Deadlifts result in fatigue. RDLs, even, "heavy: I perceive more as a weighted stretch, though, I do like them for this reason as I can use them for additional pulling volume without much accumulated fatigue.

Good mornings and Reverse Hypers, on the other hand, result in perceivable and noticeable fatigue. My lower back seldom "feels" as strong/ bullet proof as when I'm cycling in Good Mornings. Though, if you're beat up at all, have minor back tweaks or major fatigue, they are far from comfortable to perform and I'll skip them if the warm up set doesn't feel right.

 

[Nevwild]

I am nearing 40, but I have been focused on my physical health and well-being ever since I stopped skiing the terrain park 100 days a year in my late 20s. I’ve seen a lot of body work professionals, and I found that strengthening your core with something like Pilates, and building out a consistent range of high-quality motion using repeated movements like the 26&2 hot yoga are vital to my continued health. Still do strength training, still do cardio, but build up that core, and help your body align itself. I had a lot of aches and pains that were already creeping up on me, but if I do these exercises at least once a week, I feel fantastic. Give you those exercises a try for six months, and I bet you will be in a way better spot. I know I am!

 

[RockAndSage]

Pluse, inflammation is part of how an injury heals and for acute injury there is no evidence taking NSAIDs helps with healing, though also no convincing evidence they hinder it.

I can't site a source offhand, but a few months ago I do remember some report somewhere of NSAIDs hindering post-workout healing because of this anti-inflammatory effect. They're also apparently hell on your kidneys over time.

 

[RockAndSage]

RPE

Had to google "RDL" to follow the convo. What's RPE?

 

[ianpadron]

Had to google "RDL" to follow the convo. What's RPE?

rate of perceived exertion, similar to the pain scale at the ER...it gauges how hard someone feels that they are working...0 asleep, 10 max effort.

 

[TaperPin]

Your late 40s 50s and 60s is where everything you’ve overdone in the younger years becomes an issue. In the trades overdoing things is how we make the most money and joint wear is a fact of life and those who manage wear better have longer careers. When you’re young nobody tells you the harder you work the worse off you’ll be down the road, at least it’s human nature to not listen.

I’d have a hard look at what you can do to reduce heavy wear activities throughout the year. Lose weight. When working, lifting less weight, moving at a slightly slower pace so joints stay better lubricated and reducing repetition are big ones. Change how you do things, buy equipment at work that reduces wear on you, or hire more young guys to do the grunt work. It’s like a bearing in a car, the harder it’s pushed the faster joints wear out. Joints are good for a certain number of cycles at a certain load and that’s it. Fewer cycles or less load and as much lube as possible is where it’s at.

I’m surprised nobody talked about staying well hydrated. If you’re dried out, joints don’t magically stay juicy when nothing else is. As your joints get worse you’ll feel the difference between low water and normal water days, but before things are worn to near bone on bone you are helping preserve them with hydration and whatever gets prescribed for joint juice nowadays.

 

[RockAndSage]

rate of perceived exertion, similar to the pain scale at the ER...it gauges how hard someone feels that they are working...0 asleep, 10 max effort.

Ah, thanks. Makes a lot more sense now.

 

[ianpadron]

Can you point me to that study?

Scott Crawford is the researcher and has a number of related knee flexor studies you'd likely enjoy, including the one I alluded to fresh off the press, title below:

"Hamstrings Muscle Architecture and Morphology Following 6 wk of an Eccentrically Biased Romanian Deadlift or Nordic Hamstring Exercise Intervention "​

Full version with statistics and nerdy stuff might be behind a paywall for you, but you should at least be able to find the summary/findings page on PubMed or similar.

He's at the University of Wisconsin Kinesiology Department, same one I graduated from.

Of interest is the focus on the eccentric portion of the movement...which from everything I've read in the current literature, and experienced while training, is certainly the answer for both injury prevention and recovery, and has always been why Nordics are speculated to be so effective...you are essentially forced to spend the majority of your time/effort in an eccentric contraction.

From past Nordic curl studies showing decreases in hamstring, back, and non-contact knee injury rates, as well as the underlying morphological adaptations that are responsible for preventing those injuries, the working hypothesis rolled out of the study above is that since the morphological adaptations are identical between movements, they are interchangeable for programming in a rehab and S and C environment.

I'll go one degree of analysis further and state that the similarities are likely due to improving strength in the lengthened state...which has the most dramatic effect on controlling deceleration under load, whether sprinting, carrying heavy things down a mountain, etc. and creates a more stable knee joint.

 

[BoilerBowHunter]

Some good stuff in here. Lots of people much more educated than me. However, I have been on my own journey after I blew out a lumbar disc at the ripe age of 37 last year. I have spent a lot of time since trying to strengthen my lower body and core but also increase mobility.

If you believe that mobility is tied to joint strength/resiliency, then the book "Becoming a Supple Leopard" may be of interest. Learning how to really get into my soft tissue through the use of lacrosse balls and "flossing" while creating pressure has been really great for me. If static stretching worked, I'd be as flexible as a 5 year old based on how much time I spent stretching.... It wasn't until I started using some of these dynamic/movement- based approaches that I actually unlocked more mobility/flexibility.

 

[Dave_]

I was in this boat a few years ago in my mid 30s when I was running alot. I ended up going to a sports chiropractor. They had me start stretching alot (hamstring, IT band, calves, achilles, quads) and strengthening my legs and core muscles. I'm in my early 40's now and have not had any knee pain in a long time.

Now I'm working on my back pain & stiffness, I can usually get it under control within a few weeks also with stretching and core exercises. Keeping well hydrated and fish oils can't hurt either.

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