Lubing Bullets/Necks

[Gargoyle]

For many years, and in 308 WIN, I've used Federal Gold Medal Match ammo as an indicator of a rifle's accuracy potential. Seems if a rifle is intolerant to precision with that ammo, hopes are grim for much else. I noticed the FGMM has rather light "neck tension". I found this out pulling some rounds over the years trying in vain to discover the powder Federal used. Well, that powder has changed a couple/few times over the years. The latest batch I have are filled 40.5gr with an extruded powder in the burn rate vicinity of IMR 3031.

I told that story to tell this story, I thought, "Maybe this neck tension" (Interference fit) of those FGMM is what makes them so universally accurate. Also keeping in mind maybe I don't want interference fit so light in my hunting and AR rigs. The US Army shooting team is reported to use .003" neck tension for AR style rifles and reduce to .002" for bolt guns. (Measuring the difference between ODs of a sized empty neck vs loaded bullet neck)

So my hypothesis is: Will using graphite as a bullet release agent in a cartridge with case neck interference fit of .003" be of any benefit?

 

[MThuntr]

probably not but there is chatter on a the Hammer bullets forum about cold welding of bullets to the brass and guys are dry lubing bullets to ensure that the neck tension they set isn't interfered with by a (rare) chemical reaction. That is likely attributed to the type of copper used by Hammer and may not have any bearing on the gold medal bullets.

A lot of those guys have gone to crimping using a modified method with the Lee factory crimp die so you may find a sweet spot by messing with a crimp setting too.

 

[BBob]

So my hypothesis is: Will using graphite as a bullet release agent in a cartridge with case neck interference fit of .003" be of any benefit?

The only way to ever answer these questions is to test it for yourself in your rifle. Just because it might work for me doesn’t mean it’ll work for you and just because it might work in one rifle doesn’t mean it’ll work in the next. Btw I never found lubing necks with anything has ever done anything positive as far as I can tell for me. The only time I lube the inside of a neck is on virgin brass so I don’t gall the inside of the neck on first loading. I’m in the camp that doesn’t do anything to clean the inside of the necks other than a quick wipe with a nylon brush. Lately on one rifle to see what else I can skip doing is not brushing the necks with the nylon brush and no change out to 500m. I’m also not cleaning primer pockets on that one with no change.

 

[Mag_7s]

If I'm reading you hypothesis correctly, I don't believe there would be any interference with a graphite lubricant. Short range accuracy would be pretty negligible. However at longer distances you may see improved accuracy from less vertical dispersion resulting from a lower standard deviation of velocities.

 

[Lawnboi]

I had nothing but inconsistency when using graphite lube and have ultimately gone away from it. Tried it on bullets, on the neck for the sizing operation and neck expanding with a mandrel. All my seating is done on an arbor press so it’s fairly easy to figure out when stuff feels the same or when stuff feels different in regards to seating pressure.

I now just use imperial wax for everything and dry tumble the case to take it off. It’s seemed to leave me with the most consistent seating, be it .0015 tension to .003.

Iv also moved to shooting for .0025 to .003 for neck tension and found it to overall be better.

 

[Gargoyle]

I had nothing but inconsistency when using graphite lube and have ultimately gone away from it. Tried it on bullets, on the neck for the sizing operation and neck expanding with a mandrel. All my seating is done on an arbor press so it’s fairly easy to figure out when stuff feels the same or when stuff feels different in regards to seating pressure.

I now just use imperial wax for everything and dry tumble the case to take it off. It’s seemed to leave me with the most consistent seating, be it .0015 tension to .003.

Iv also moved to shooting for .0025 to .003 for neck tension and found it to overall be better.

So, your inside case necks are not lubed at all?

 

[Lawnboi]

So, your inside case necks are not lubed at all?

When I mandrel, I wipe a little imperial wax on the lip after lubing the neck.

I used to use an imperial graphite dunk. I ended up scratching brass, scratching mandrels, making me think the lube just was not doing its job. Combined with inconsistent seating left me to try the wax.

Now I just lube my case and rub my finger over the rim do all my sizing/mandrel most of time time in the same pull with a sac die, and dry tumble the brass.

Carbon, dry tumble dust end up in the neck that’s nice and smooth.

With virgin brass I do the same with the mandrel, imperial wax. Graphite just dosnt stick to freshly annealed necks and didn’t seem to be doing an adequate job.

 

[Gila]

I am a rookie to rifle reloading but science tells us not to use any lube on the bullet for consistent neck tension. I started out using a bushing to set neck tension in a full resizing die. I lube the entire case with imperial sizing wax. But there is a problem with just using a bushing to set neck tension. With each firing, the neck wall thickness will change and thus the neck tension could be inconsistent. The cases then require a neck turn. I am going to try a neck tension mandrel in an expander die as a second step after resizing with the bushing.

Hornady recommends setting neck tension on a bolt gun to .003. Hornady engineers suggest that there is spring back on the neck tension of about .001. I am annealing the brass to reduce spring back as much as possible and hopefully that will reduce runout as well. I use a bushing that is .004 less than the neck diameter. The neck tension mandrel is the 2nd and last step......0025. I completely back off the crimp on the seating die. I use sizing die wax on the mandrel as it will get cleaned up in the tumbler anyway. I have yet to test this out at the range though.

AR ammo is different than a bolt gun. At least .005 neck tension is needed for an automatic weapon according to the engineers.

Any and all suggestions are welcome!

 

[Rich M]

I dont lube bullets or the necks.

 

[Gargoyle]

I dont lube bullets or the necks.

Well, don't start!

 

[Coyotehunter4]

Well, don't start!

Do you anneal your brass? I wonder if that would make a more consistent neck to bullet tension? I have went to a factory crimp die for my 35 Remington. I did that for other reasons but an unknown benefit was it really tightened up my 3 shot groups.

 

[Gargoyle]

Do you anneal your brass? I wonder if that would make a more consistent neck to bullet tension? I have went to a factory crimp die for my 35 Remington. I did that for other reasons but an unknown benefit was it really tightened up my 3 shot groups.

I anneal after every firing. That typically takes some stress out of the necks. Before I started annealing I had a batch of brass fired 5-6 times and the seating force was getting unreal. The first anneal of the same batch returned them to normal seating force!

I must crimp my 35 Rem loads for my Model 8! If not, I get bullet setback in the case.

 

[gbflyer]

I think GMM is so consistent because the brass is soft. For group shooting, a guy would save frustration to focus on cartridges they load it for, leave the spent brass on the ground, and take the reloading gear to the classifieds. Haha.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Graphite lube has been nothing but a benefit in all of my loads. It prevents cold weld on loaded ammo that sits for long periods of time, and can shrink ES/SD. I started experimenting with graphite lube after I noticed pressure signs show up, and impacts roughly 1' over POA at longer ranges, in 2 different loads that sat a couple seasons and developed cold weld. If you bump them a couple thou with a seating die, they produce a nice audible "pop" when you break the fusion.

My process now is to anneal, spray with homemade lanolin/alcohol lube, size/deprime, tumble in white rice for an hour, chamfer/deburr/nylon brush neck, fluff a q tip up and apply a dusting of graphite to inner case necks, prime, charge, seat. I also typically use factory dies, or a bushing at least .004" under OD of a loaded round, and I run over an expander ball .002" under bullet diameter. You'll notice a distinct reduction in seating force on a cam press.

I've read tale that copper will bond to clean brass even in new/factory ammo, but my findings are solely based on fired brass that I reloaded. Once there is residual carbon in the neck, I have confirmed they will eventually bond. If you don't believe me, read Alex Wheelers prep and load sequence.

 

[Gargoyle]

Graphite lube has been nothing but a benefit in all of my loads. It prevents cold weld on loaded ammo that sits for long periods of time, and can shrink ES/SD. I started experimenting with graphite lube after I noticed pressure signs show up, and impacts roughly 1' over POA at longer ranges, in 2 different loads that sat a couple seasons and developed cold weld. If you bump them a couple thou with a seating die, they produce a nice audible "pop" when you break the fusion.

My process now is to anneal, spray with homemade lanolin/alcohol lube, size/deprime, tumble in white rice for an hour, chamfer/deburr/nylon brush neck, fluff a q tip up and apply a dusting of graphite to inner case necks, prime, charge, seat. I also typically use factory dies, or a bushing at least .004" under OD of a loaded round, and I run over an expander ball .002" under bullet diameter. You'll notice a distinct reduction in seating force on a cam press.

I've read tale that copper will bond to clean brass even in new/factory ammo, but my findings are solely based on fired brass that I reloaded. Once there is residual carbon in the neck, I have confirmed they will eventually bond. If you don't believe me, read Alex Wheelers prep and load sequence.

Maybe I was using too much. I dipped the bullets in the BB filed graphite container and let the seating process push the excess out of the neck when seating...

 

[Harvey_NW]

Maybe I was using too much. I dipped the bullets in the BB filed graphite container and let the seating process push the excess out of the neck when seating...

I can't say for certain, but a little bit definitely goes a long ways. My mentor told me there's no need to waste any or dip, just use a Q tip and reload it every 10 cases or so. I can see how it could affect results by the drastic changes it produces, but once I started using it consistently I noticed nothing but a benefit.

 

[Wrench]

I use the imperial ceramic/graphite tub and find it seats MUCH more accurately for me.

My rifles shoot well with or without it, but hitting a depth is way easier lubed.