Love Thy Neighbor

[String&stick]

Idk guys. . . This seems to be straying into some dangerous territory with some of the rhetoric.

A terrible thing happened to a public figure. A suspect has yet to be apprehended or his reasoning ascertained. Drumming yourself up to hate others in the midst of that is 100% not what Jesus would support.

Should there be justice? Absolutely, should you be gearing up to hate people that lien left or believe differently than yourself? I guess if you want to turn out like the individual currently being pursued for this crime.

We need more common ground, we need more agree to disagree and less hard line stances. 80% of the populace has way more in common than not, but every step of the way division is sewn and walls thrown up to make us hate each other!

Love your neighbor, have grace for differing viewpoints presented respectfully, and don't become something you despise but with a different color of tie!

 

[go_deep]

Forgiveness, with justice.
Pope John Paul II went to the prison and met with the man who tried to assassinate him. The Pope forgave him, but when the Pope left that man stayed in jail, because that's justice.

 

[Marbles]

God has been working on me with this. I'll spare everyone the long story, but in short anger I long believe to be righteous has caused me to sin in my heart. While I have been a Christian since childhood, what he demanded from me almost to years ago almost broke me. It was nothing outward, but very clearly I was commanded to surrender my protection to him and renounce my right even to protect my family. The command has softened slightly, and he has not tested me. I pray he does not because I fear it would be beyond what I can endure.

Fear, fear that turns to "righteous anger" and a drive to protect my family and country from evil has put my soul in more danger than anything else.

To jump to the extreme. There is no moral hazard in being shot in the back of the head over a mass grave with my family. Their is great moral hazard in being the one doing the shooting.

This holds true for Christians and most creeds. Your values will certainly be different if you believe in Oden.

This is why the church has been dying for 100 years. Too weak and too feminine. Jesus didn't tolerate evil and neither should we.

Jesus tolerated evil beyond what most of use will ever have to, and he set the example, beaten, mocked, and tortured to death by those who believed they were defending God. He was lead as a lamb to slaughter, and we know he is our example. He spoke truly when he said "The way is narrow and few are those who find it."

In life, Jesus was criticized for being around tax collectors and prostitutes and for not taking a stand against Rome.



P.S. To be clear, the mealy mouthed passivism that says "I cannot commit violence, but I can call the police to do it for me" is not what I'm talking about. If violence is a sin in the situation, than asking someone else to carry it out on you behalf is a double sin. If a soul is to be damned for protecting my family, it will be mine. Thus, there is no easy way out.

 

[P Carter]

Love your neighbor…true. But if I’m recalling correctly, the call is more radical than that: love thy enemy and pray for those who persecute you. That’s the tough one, yes?

 

[T28w]

It was nothing outward, but very clearly I was commanded to surrender my protection to him and renounce my right even to protect my family.

Renounce your right to protect your family?
Are you just hoping for a miracle and some intervention if your family needs protection?
You kinda lost me here.

 

[Bullzeyez61]

Forgiveness and acceptance is hard. I have a brother who suffers from mental illness really bad. So bad he tried to kill my mother in a planned attack a brutal one. By the grace of god she survived.

It’s been just over a year and she has forgiven him and is in contact with him while he is in prison. I have come to terms to forgive him have have not come to terms to speak with him and I hope someday I will but it will take time.

It is always better to spread love and forgiveness even toward your enemy. Why throw more things into a pot that is already boiling over. That is what I learned and it took a very hard lesson to learn it. But I am only responsible for myself and my actions and I would rather stand up tall than stoop to low levels but that is just me.

An eye for an eye makes the world blind. Love you all.

 

[Marbles]

Renounce your right to protect your family?
Are you just hoping for a miracle and some intervention if your family needs protection?
You kinda lost me here.

No, it is fully recognizing that due to the free will of other I and my family may die horribly at the hands of evil men.

If you want to know what horribly might look like, read up on the Dirlewanger Brigade.

I do not believe this yoke is laid on all, but my ability to carry out violence on other humans had become an idol, the command to lay it down, eyes wide open, no promises of devine protection, just that whatever happens it will serve Christ, as the deaths of Christians in Rome served him, as his death served him.

 

[T28w]

No, it is fully recognizing that due to the free will of other I and my family may die horribly at the hands of evil men.

If you want to know what horribly might look like, read up on the Dirlewanger Brigade.

I do not believe this yoke is laid on all, but my ability to carry out violence on other humans had become an idol, the command to lay it down, eyes wide open, no promises of devine protection, just that whatever happens it will serve Christ, as the deaths of Christians in Rome served him, as his death served him.

I think it’s fine as long as the rest of your family is on board and in agreement, and not expecting you to protect them if you were able to and chose not to.

That’s tough, and I hope this is a temporary “calling” to lay down your right to protect your family. I may can accept not protecting myself, but my wife and 2 children, 7 and 8 years old, nope.

I have heard this before from people but just don’t agree, it sounds almost like you are searching for something and I hope you find it. And I pray for protection for you and yours.

 

[ThorM465]

God has been working on me with this. I'll spare everyone the long story, but in short anger I long believe to be righteous has caused me to sin in my heart. While I have been a Christian since childhood, what he demanded from me almost to years ago almost broke me. It was nothing outward, but very clearly I was commanded to surrender my protection to him and renounce my right even to protect my family. The command has softened slightly, and he has not tested me. I pray he does not because I fear it would be beyond what I can endure.

Fear, fear that turns to "righteous anger" and a drive to protect my family and country from evil has put my soul in more danger than anything else.

To jump to the extreme. There is no moral hazard in being shot in the back of the head over a mass grave with my family. Their is great moral hazard in being the one doing the shooting.

This holds true for Christians and most creeds. Your values will certainly be different if you believe in Oden.


Jesus tolerated evil beyond what most of use will ever have to, and he set the example, beaten, mocked, and tortured to death by those who believed they were defending God. He was lead as a lamb to slaughter, and we know he is our example. He spoke truly when he said "The way is narrow and few are those who find it."

In life, Jesus was criticized for being around tax collectors and prostitutes and for not taking a stand against Rome.



P.S. To be clear, the mealy mouthed passivism that says "I cannot commit violence, but I can call the police to do it for me" is not what I'm talking about. If violence is a sin in the situation, than asking someone else to carry it out on you behalf is a double sin. If a soul is to be damned for protecting my family, it will be mine. Thus, there is no easy way out.

I’m not sure what delusions you’ve conjured to support this blasphemy. I don’t mean to personally attack you for the sake of attacking you, but this idea is evil and needs to be destroyed.

As a Husband and a Father you have a God given duty to lead, protect, and provide for your family. The notion that you would allow your family to suffer for some self righteous notion even if you were correct and it was key to your ticket to heaven is narcissistic cowardice.

I’m prepared to burn in hell for eternity if that is what I must do to ensure my family’s safety and eternal souls. Just as my savior went into the pits of hell to save my soul I will do for my family if called to for that is the responsibility God has seen fit to honor me with.

Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.

Christ didn’t sacrifice my soul so that he could remain pure. He sacrificed everything of himself, so that my wretched soul would be allowed into Heaven.

 

[Marbles]

I’m not sure what delusions you’ve conjured to support this blasphemy. I don’t mean to personally attack you for the sake of attacking you, but this idea is evil and needs to be destroyed.

As a Husband and a Father you have a God given duty to lead, protect, and provide for your family. The notion that you would allow your family to suffer for some self righteous notion even if you were correct and it was key to your ticket to heaven is narcissistic cowardice.

I’m prepared to burn in hell for eternity if that is what I must do to ensure my family’s safety and eternal souls. Just as my savior went into the pits of hell to save my soul I will do for my family if called to for that is the responsibility God has seen fit to honor me with.

Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.

Christ didn’t sacrifice my soul so that he could remain pure. He sacrificed everything of himself, so that my wretched soul would be allowed into Heaven.

Do you hold that this life is the goal? Or, is this world simply a place we pass through? Is the ashes and dest of our flesh really comparable to eternal souls? Am I or is Christ better placed to care for the eternal souls of my wife and children?

As to Ephesians 5:25, what did Christ tell the Church in John 15:20? "Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also." And so, he tells the Church she will suffer on this earth for his sake. He goes further in John 16:1-4.

Luke 14:26
“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple."

Philippines 1:29 (Paul who also wrote Ephesians)
"For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him".

 

[OKHunter84]

No, it is fully recognizing that due to the free will of other I and my family may die horribly at the hands of evil men.

If you want to know what horribly might look like, read up on the Dirlewanger Brigade.

I do not believe this yoke is laid on all, but my ability to carry out violence on other humans had become an idol, the command to lay it down, eyes wide open, no promises of devine protection, just that whatever happens it will serve Christ, as the deaths of Christians in Rome served him, as his death served him.

Man you lost me on this bro. I've been a Christian my whole life and I've never once felt God would want me to sit by and watch harm come to my loved ones or someone that is defenseless. I could never watch someone hurt my wife and children. I know my Dad wouldn't either. Guess that's why we're supposed to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

Some may disagree but I think I would rather hazard my soul then watch my children beg me to help them and then do nothing.

 

[ThorM465]

Do you hold that this life is the goal? Or, is this world simply a place we pass through? Is the ashes and dest of our flesh really comparable to eternal souls? Am I or is Christ better placed to care for the eternal souls of my wife and children?

As to Ephesians 5:25, what did Christ tell the Church in John 15:20? "Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also." And so, he tells the Church she will suffer on this earth for his sake. He goes further in John 16:1-4.

Luke 14:26
“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple."

Philippines 1:29 (Paul who also wrote Ephesians)
"For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him".

The goal is eternity and this is temporary. That still doesn't dissolve you of your responsibilities while you're here on this mortal plane.

Jesus talked much of his sacrifice and the sacrifice that could be expected of yourself. Nowhere does he talk of sacrificing others on your own behalf and he sure as hell never allowed for a man to sit by and allow his Family to be sacrificed for some sense of self righteousness.

As a Man your duty to your Family is your duty to God.

 

[Marbles]

The goal is eternity and this is temporary. That still doesn't dissolve you of your responsibilities while you're here on this mortal plane.

Jesus talked much of his sacrifice and the sacrifice that could be expected of yourself. Nowhere does he talk of sacrificing others on your own behalf and he sure as hell never allowed for a man to sit by and allow his Family to be sacrificed for some sense of self righteousness.

As a Man your duty to your Family is your duty to God.

Responsibility is both simple (when considered towards a single idea) and complex (when considered in the maelstrom of life). No one thing on this earth should be placed before all others all the time.

Two hypotheticals to demonstrate:

1: America is at war with China, you are a high ranking officer with detailed information in your head about a multi corps attack across a wide front that will be carried out in a few days. You and your family are captured by the enemy in a highly complex special ops raid. Do you betray your country and sacrifice multiple divisions of American soldiers so your family doesn't suffer?

2. An evil regime takes over the world and outlaws Christianity. They demand the head of household publicly denounce Christ and accept some perversion or another as being "good." Then in this particular surveillance state they will insure the head of household's words and actions continue to be consistent. Those who do not make this statement and then live accordingly will be rounded up with their family and shipped of to concentration camps, or killed with their family in as horrible a way as possible if they resist. Do you denounce Christ and surve this government?

You assume self-righteousness; I can see your position, but examining my own heart the charge is not valid. I'm doubtful I would live up to what is demanded if truly tested, and expressed this from the start.

The command has softened slightly, and he has not tested me. I pray he does not because I fear it would be beyond what I can endure.

In the end, the heart itself is deceptive and Jeremiah 17:9 warns us against it. So beyond examining myself, I must remain on guard that what I profess as faith is not actually self-righteous dogma. Thank you for that reminder.

The first phrase, in the quote above about the command softening, intentionally glosses over a whole lot of complexity. Past saying I cannot honestly claim to be a pacifist, that complexity is not something I'm currently capable of articulating in a way that might be helpful to anyone or that doesn't puff up my own pride. So I have to leave it at that.

 

[woods89]

This will likely not get me many likes, lol.

I was raised in the Anabaptist faith, and still am a part of it today. What @Marbles is talking about has been my belief and the belief of those around me for many years. Contrary to what people might think, we are not being murdered, raped, and robbed on a daily basis.

The common response to this is that "Well, you live in a country where safety is provided for you by others who are willing to do violence." To a certain extent that is true, and I am thankful for the structure around me. I also do not pretend to know how to direct society, only my own life. However, my extended church has put thousands of families (including my own, when I was young) in the mission field in 3rd world countries over the last 50 years, in situations that, as you might imagine, are not always terribly safe. Terms are generally 3-5 years. They try to be careful with placements, but the situation in these countries is dynamic, to say the least.

It's been interesting to hear how things go for these folks. There are some hair-raising stories, no doubt. But the protecting hand of God comes through over and over. These missionary families should, statistically, have suffered a certain level of violence over the years, and yet their lives are spared over and over. Now we are certainly not guaranteed safety, and sometimes bad things do happen to Christians, and yet I have seen over and over that people who take the route of peace find tremendous protection from God's hand. That's not to say that these situations don't sometimes have the feeling of Abraham climbing the mountain with his son Isaac.

I'm not going to tell anyone how to believe. All I ask is that every Christian spend some time with Christ's teachings, and really think about what he was trying to teach us.

Ironically, the greatest violence my ancestors faced was in the Middle Ages, when the Catholic church did it's best to exterminate the Anabaptist faith, because they saw them as heretics. I believe that time period was also the greatest growth the Anabaptist faith has ever seen.

 

[P Carter]

This will likely not get me many likes, lol.

I was raised in the Anabaptist faith, and still am a part of it today. What @Marbles is talking about has been my belief and the belief of those around me for many years. Contrary to what people might think, we are not being murdered, raped, and robbed on a daily basis.

The common response to this is that "Well, you live in a country where safety is provided for you by others who are willing to do violence." To a certain extent that is true, and I am thankful for the structure around me. I also do not pretend to know how to direct society, only my own life. However, my extended church has put thousands of families (including my own, when I was young) in the mission field in 3rd world countries over the last 50 years, in situations that, as you might imagine, are not always terribly safe. Terms are generally 3-5 years. They try to be careful with placements, but the situation in these countries is dynamic, to say the least.

It's been interesting to hear how things go for these folks. There are some hair-raising stories, no doubt. But the protecting hand of God comes through over and over. These missionary families should, statistically, have suffered a certain level of violence over the years, and yet their lives are spared over and over. Now we are certainly not guaranteed safety, and sometimes bad things do happen to Christians, and yet I have seen over and over that people who take the route of peace find tremendous protection from God's hand. That's not to say that these situations don't sometimes have the feeling of Abraham climbing the mountain with his son Isaac.

I'm not going to tell anyone how to believe. All I ask is that every Christian spend some time with Christ's teachings, and really think about what he was trying to teach us.

Ironically, the greatest violence my ancestors faced was in the Middle Ages, when the Catholic church did it's best to exterminate the Anabaptist faith, because they saw them as heretics. I believe that time period was also the greatest growth the Anabaptist faith has ever seen.

When I posted, the Anabaptists were on my mind. Truly compelling witnesses to powerful truths. I'm not Anabaptist, and there are many things to say about the matter, but their (your) conviction, courage, and audacity have been proven over and over again and, in my view at least, are beyond doubt. Well put.

 

[alaska_bou]

I'm not going to tell anyone how to believe. All I ask is that every Christian spend some time with Christ's teachings, and really think about what he was trying to teach us.

Unfortunately, very few modern-day Christians are familiar with the actual message of Christ. If they didn't know any better, the majority would call Jesus himself a woke liberal when you reference his message to love ALL people, to welcome the stranger, help the needy, feed the poor, forgive those who have sinned, to turn the other check rather than seek retribution, to come together, etc. These pseudo-Christians have been indoctrinated by fear-based religion and brainwashed by their choice of media to reject any form of Christ's message as evil socialism. Much of what we are seeing as a nation today is the is the antithesis of anything Christ-like.

If someone is calling people "losers" while wearing a cross around their neck, that person clearly has no idea who Christ was. "Love thy neighbor" is lost when pseudo-Christians idolize political influencers and elected officials who continue to vilify 50% of this nation who hold different opinions, different politics, different ideologies, etc as "they" who are the enemy. These people who hold this power over the masses are nothing more than self-serving salesman who prey on those who are easily influenced.

 

[ThorM465]

Responsibility is both simple (when considered towards a single idea) and complex (when considered in the maelstrom of life). No one thing on this earth should be placed before all others all the time.

Two hypotheticals to demonstrate:

1: America is at war with China, you are a high ranking officer with detailed information in your head about a multi corps attack across a wide front that will be carried out in a few days. You and your family are captured by the enemy in a highly complex special ops raid. Do you betray your country and sacrifice multiple divisions of American soldiers so your family doesn't suffer?

2. An evil regime takes over the world and outlaws Christianity. They demand the head of household publicly denounce Christ and accept some perversion or another as being "good." Then in this particular surveillance state they will insure the head of household's words and actions continue to be consistent. Those who do not make this statement and then live accordingly will be rounded up with their family and shipped of to concentration camps, or killed with their family in as horrible a way as possible if they resist. Do you denounce Christ and surve this government?

You assume self-righteousness; I can see your position, but examining my own heart the charge is not valid. I'm doubtful I would live up to what is demanded if truly tested, and expressed this from the start.

In the end, the heart itself is deceptive and Jeremiah 17:9 warns us against it. So beyond examining myself, I must remain on guard that what I profess as faith is not actually self-righteous dogma. Thank you for that reminder.

The first phrase, in the quote above about the command softening, intentionally glosses over a whole lot of complexity. Past saying I cannot honestly claim to be a pacifist, that complexity is not something I'm currently capable of articulating in a way that might be helpful to anyone or that doesn't puff up my own pride. So I have to leave it at that.

To answer everyone of your question specifically and directly - God, Family, Country(read as beginning with local community and then working outwards) in that order of precedence. God is placed ahead of all things, at all times. Then my Family, followed by my community.

It really doesn't need to be made any more complicated than that.

 

[Yoder]

The kid who did this was one of us. Conservative family, hunters. Not blue haired leftists. All of you who are working your butts off to pay for your kids' college, you might want to reconsider. It's like paying to send your kid to a Hitler youth camp. Stop paying to have your children indoctrinated.

 

[alaska_bou]

The kid who did this was one of us. Conservative family, hunters. Not blue haired leftists. All of you who are working your butts off to pay for your kids' college, you might want to reconsider. It's like paying to send your kid to a Hitler youth camp. Stop paying to have your children indoctrinated.

More "us vs. them" rhetoric. So what you are saying is that your kids won't ever have the ability to become a physician, an airline pilot, an engineer, an attorney, etc, because colleges are all left-wing brainwashing institutions.... Got it!

 

[ThorM465]

This will likely not get me many likes, lol.

I was raised in the Anabaptist faith, and still am a part of it today. What @Marbles is talking about has been my belief and the belief of those around me for many years. Contrary to what people might think, we are not being murdered, raped, and robbed on a daily basis.

The common response to this is that "Well, you live in a country where safety is provided for you by others who are willing to do violence." To a certain extent that is true, and I am thankful for the structure around me. I also do not pretend to know how to direct society, only my own life. However, my extended church has put thousands of families (including my own, when I was young) in the mission field in 3rd world countries over the last 50 years, in situations that, as you might imagine, are not always terribly safe. Terms are generally 3-5 years. They try to be careful with placements, but the situation in these countries is dynamic, to say the least.

It's been interesting to hear how things go for these folks. There are some hair-raising stories, no doubt. But the protecting hand of God comes through over and over. These missionary families should, statistically, have suffered a certain level of violence over the years, and yet their lives are spared over and over.

The "common response" is the correct response. You're able to exist for two reasons. 1: Meek men willing to do violence on your behalf. 2: You're a small minority that are able to pass yourselves off as a non-threat. That works as long as you remain a small enough and quite enough minority. We see this tactic in the animal kingdom from some species.

I'm not by any stretch nor have I seen any other Christian deny the power of the protective hand of our God. However, God has bestowed into some of us the ability to protect ourselves and others. Denying the strength God has bestowed upon us is to deny him. I don't pray to God for him to protect me or to resolve my problems. I pray he gives me the strength to protect those I love and the resolve to solve my own problems. I pray he does this to enough God fearing men in my community that my Family is protected when I'm not present.

Now we are certainly not guaranteed safety, and sometimes bad things do happen to Christians, and yet I have seen over and over that people who take the route of peace find tremendous protection from God's hand. That's not to say that these situations don't sometimes have the feeling of Abraham climbing the mountain with his son Isaac.

I struggled with the story of Abraham climbing the mountain and wasn't able to understand it until I became a Father. God sent Abraham to the top of the mountain to do the unthinkable. The most difficult thing that he could ask of any Father or any Mother. Ultimately, God stopped Abraham and made it clear that he would not ask that sacrifice of Abraham or us. Then, God sent his one and only son whom he allowed to be sacrificed so that we could spend eternity in his presence. You see Abraham climbing the mountain was a prophecy. God wanted us to understand that he loves us so much that he would not only not ask us to make the unthinkable sacrifice, God took it upon himself to make that sacrifice for us.