Looking for ideas on a compact deer rifle

[goalie]

6.5 Grendel absolutely has the “oomph”. My last 5 or 6 deer have been killed with one. The farthest any of them went was 35 yards. The rest died within feet. All with ELD-Ms out of 10.5 or 16” barrels.

I’d recommend a 12” complete upper from PSA with a pistol brace lower and upgraded trigger. I had to change my barrel to 10.5” to comply with a change in state regs for alternative methods season, but before that, my 12” PSA build could shoot 1 MOA groups from a bench.

We built with the PSA barrel/bolt combo for $200. It's a hammer on deer. Longest so far is 51 yards though, we're in woods.

 

[Chris in TN]

Big slow bullets just suck at killing stuff. They make a hole not a soup. I prefer to make soup.

I've probably - by legal necessity - shot 1/3 of the deer I've killed in my life, with muzzleloaders and various other over-.35 bullets. It's incredibly rare for a muzzleloader-shot deer to make it more than 50-60 yards.
I'm guessing that when I say that I'm drawing on 60-70 kills ranging from .45 Colt revolver with 300+ grain bullets at 1100' or so, on up to 300s at 2400'+ or 225s at up to 2600'. Most of those are with smokeless muzzleloaders, of course, but a ton were with 80 grains of Pyrodex back in the day, and a modern 45-70 can easily push those speeds with 300-grain bullets in Marlin or stronger single shot actions.

I will agree that 'hard cast' or heavily jacketed bullets designed for rifles, are poor performers at pistol speeds. The trick, as always, is to match the bullet speed to its construction. A 350-grain 45-70 soft point designed for 2000' will underexpand at 1200' just like a 55 grain 22-250 at 3800' might underpenetrate. To be clear, I'm not advocating for BIG BORE WALLOP here. I am just recognizing that by legal necessity I have to use big bores a lot (because our daylight rut/seeking activity peaks here during MZ season) and they kill stuff quite well.

I wouldn't hesitate to put a hornady .452 250 or 300 XTP through a deer or moose at 1100' to 1400'. And if I could use a Speer Gold Dot I wouldn't hesitate to even drop down to 1000' or possibly even less. Trajectory becomes a problem long before terminal performance does.

(ETA: Also, those Hornady .452/250 XTPs will work very well at even higher speeds. At 1800' or faster they tend to stop making exit wounds, but they still kill very well, and at 2200' they start to resemble modern match bullets that we might shoot at 2500' to 3000' out of smaller bore; nothing will survive a decent hit from one)

 

[ORJoe]

I know, Nothing is impossible. I clearly hit the deer. Hopefully I just grazed it, and it was a bad shot, and the deer lived. I just have a hard time believing that I made that bad of a shot at that distance given how well the rifle has shot on the range. Stranger things have certainly happened, dont get me wrong.

But it left a sour taste in my mouth toward 300blk on a deer. If it had been a giant deer I may have pawned the gun that day.

The first three big game animals I got would have been easy shots on the range, but I still put a warning shot into the dirt behind all three of them because that's how it goes.
The two deer were with a 6.5 Grendel, 123 SSTs, died within 10 feet once I actually hit them.

 

[77TMK]

223 has all the oomph needed for whitetail deer, and then still plenty more.

T3X Lite 16" with durable but inexpensive scope
or go for a light AR15 like a BCM ELW 16" upper on lower of your choice, and a red dot +magnifier will make easy work of anything inside 300 yards while being about 7lb.

 

[Johnwell]

I’d vote howa mini in 6 arc or 6.5 Grendel. You can get a barreled action on brownells and then toss it in a stocky’s carbon stock. If you want it shorter/handier, you can get the jtac elf owl telescopic stock and/or shorten the barrel.

My 20” Grendel took a buck somewhere around 225-250 yards with a 100gr partition last year and seemed effective.

 

[Brandon_SPC]

Howa Mini in a 6mm ARC with a 16.5" barrel and a suppressor has been wonderful for me. Mine is a little "Custom" but you could get a barreled action. Have a gunsmith cut the barrel down and recrown/thread then get a stocky stock CF stock.

 

[minas stiris]

We have a ruger compact in 7-08 for kids when they were smaller. Kills elk just fine with 120 barnes. 18" barrel, put it in an adjustable magpul stock. Factory magazines suck but pmags work great with new stock. Just a different option.

 

[schmidty3]

I've probably - by legal necessity - shot 1/3 of the deer I've killed in my life, with muzzleloaders and various other over-.35 bullets. It's incredibly rare for a muzzleloader-shot deer to make it more than 50-60 yards.
I'm guessing that when I say that I'm drawing on 60-70 kills ranging from .45 Colt revolver with 300+ grain bullets at 1100' or so, on up to 300s at 2400'+ or 225s at up to 2600'. Most of those are with smokeless muzzleloaders, of course, but a ton were with 80 grains of Pyrodex back in the day, and a modern 45-70 can easily push those speeds with 300-grain bullets in Marlin or stronger single shot actions.

I will agree that 'hard cast' or heavily jacketed bullets designed for rifles, are poor performers at pistol speeds. The trick, as always, is to match the bullet speed to its construction. A 350-grain 45-70 soft point designed for 2000' will underexpand at 1200' just like a 55 grain 22-250 at 3800' might underpenetrate. To be clear, I'm not advocating for BIG BORE WALLOP here. I am just recognizing that by legal necessity I have to use big bores a lot (because our daylight rut/seeking activity peaks here during MZ season) and they kill stuff quite well.

I wouldn't hesitate to put a hornady .452 250 or 300 XTP through a deer or moose at 1100' to 1400'. And if I could use a Speer Gold Dot I wouldn't hesitate to even drop down to 1000' or possibly even less. Trajectory becomes a problem long before terminal performance does.

(ETA: Also, those Hornady .452/250 XTPs will work very well at even higher speeds. At 1800' or faster they tend to stop making exit wounds, but they still kill very well, and at 2200' they start to resemble modern match bullets that we might shoot at 2500' to 3000' out of smaller bore; nothing will survive a decent hit from one)

Ive probably killed almost as many with muzzleloaders, ive probably helped with 150-200 deer shot with muzzleloaders or big slow bullets. Oklahoma has a very favorably dated and generous muzzleloader season. Ive never been impressed with what a muzzleloader does (im talking general use stuff, ~100 gr powder and normal sabots, not these sniper smokeless muzzleloaders.... 1600-1800 fps and 210-240 gr bullets normally). Yeah they kill fine. But A 243 is more effective terminally. Poorly shot stuff with a high velocity rifles tend to lay up quick. Slow bullets and gut shots/high shots/leg shots dont work out well.

My best terminal effect with a muzzleloader to date was either a hog i shot at 5 yards with 150 gr of powder and a tc Shockwave (still ran 60.yards), or surprisingly a 54 cal roundball at 2000 fps, it actually flattens out and dumps its energy. Nothing ive hit with that has moved.

How many people are actually using the hottest 4570 loads?

 

[Chris in TN]

Poorly shot stuff with a high velocity rifles tend to lay up quick. Slow bullets and gut shots/high shots/leg shots dont work out well.

My experience has been that *nothing* at either end of the spectrum works well with bad shots. The only viable solution to a bad shot, is another shot that hits something more important.

(ETA: when I say 'nothing' I am including things up to .280AI and .300Wby and 7mmRM......I've yet to seem them work well on bad shots, whether guts or legs or too high)

If you aren't seeing fast kills with bullets at 1600-1800' impact velocity, you might consider different bullets. Plain old Hornady 452/250 XTPs work beautifully at that speed. The SST and similar stuff designed for 'magnum' muzzleloader speeds, don't open up all that well with old fashioned 'regular' loads, IME. I've seen plenty of people over the years complain about lack of expansion because they're using bullets designed to work at 2200' or more and pushing them at 1800' or less.

YMMV, a lot, but I will stand on it all coming down, always, to matching the projectile's construction to its speed, and putting it in the right place. Do those two things and I see muzzleloaders as no real hindrance.

Also - shooting smokeless does *NOT* mean you have to go crazy and do the ultra-magnum stuff that I assume you're referring to as 'sniper muzzleloaders'. I will hunt within the next week with a smokeless gun pushing a 250 at 1900' or less and another pushing a 200 at less than 2300'. I don't need or want the ultra-magnum levels of power some guys chase now. I just want lower recoil (from 33 grains of N110 instead of 120 grains of T7 or whatever) and the ability to see the deer after the shot. I've shot up to a 225 at 2600' (over IMR4198) in my .45 but just don't see the need for that.

 

[schmidty3]

My experience has been that *nothing* at either end of the spectrum works well with bad shots. The only viable solution to a bad shot, is another shot that hits something more important.

(ETA: when I say 'nothing' I am including things up to .280AI and .300Wby and 7mmRM......I've yet to seem them work well on bad shots, whether guts or legs or too high)

If you aren't seeing fast kills with bullets at 1600-1800' impact velocity, you might consider different bullets. Plain old Hornady 452/250 XTPs work beautifully at that speed. The SST and similar stuff designed for 'magnum' muzzleloader speeds, don't open up all that well with old fashioned 'regular' loads, IME. I've seen plenty of people over the years complain about lack of expansion because they're using bullets designed to work at 2200' or more and pushing them at 1800' or less.

YMMV, a lot, but I will stand on it all coming down, always, to matching the projectile's construction to its speed, and putting it in the right place. Do those two things and I see muzzleloaders as no real hindrance.

Also - shooting smokeless does *NOT* mean you have to go crazy and do the ultra-magnum stuff that I assume you're referring to as 'sniper muzzleloaders'. I will hunt within the next week with a smokeless gun pushing a 250 at 1900' or less and another pushing a 200 at less than 2300'. I don't need or want the ultra-magnum levels of power some guys chase now. I just want lower recoil (from 33 grains of N110 instead of 120 grains of T7 or whatever) and the ability to see the deer after the shot. I've shot up to a 225 at 2600' (over IMR4198) in my .45 but just don't see the need for that.

If we are arguing anecdotal experience... ive seen plenty of deer shot poorly with 243 go down instantly or very quickly.

See attached picture. I have no idea how that worked. But my cousin nicked that poor doe and dropped her with a 243 and im assuming a generic soft point. I finished her. But a slow bullet isn't knocking that deer down. She would've been fine.

Seen several gut shot go less then 100 yards. Conversely ive tracked several gut shot with slow bullets and not found them.

When I was a kid I hip shot one and she went 50.

Yeah...muzzleloaders/big bullets work fine. They just don't work as well on bad shots. You really gotta get the front half. Then it doesnt matter what you use anyway.

 

[Chris in TN]

If we are arguing anecdotal experience...

Nah. Not interested in arguing. We're obviously not going to change each other's minds.

 

[DangerRanger]

I really like my supressed 16” tikka 6.5

Next year I’ll likely “upgrade” to the unknown can to even further reduce over all length in the tree stand/thick woods.

 

[The_Dinkmaster]

6.5 Grendel absolutely has the “oomph”. My last 5 or 6 deer have been killed with one. The farthest any of them went was 35 yards. The rest died within feet. All with ELD-Ms out of 10.5 or 16” barrels.

I’d recommend a 12” complete upper from PSA with a pistol brace lower and upgraded trigger. I had to change my barrel to 10.5” to comply with a change in state regs for alternative methods season, but before that, my 12” PSA build could shoot 1 MOA groups from a bench.

PSA make a decent Grendel upper? I know some people have complained about their quality in the past

 

[Broken Twigg]

Howa mini action in 6ARC. Plenty $ left over for rings and SWFA scope.