Long Range Hunting: Hold Over Reticle, Dial or Both?

[gretch6364]

Out of curiosity, are you dialing with a turret that is marked in yardage, or MIL/MOA?

Side note....as someone that has been shooting a bow for 30 plus years...a single pin disgust me and you made my argument for me as it relates to your decision making ability. (unless you are a mid-western/eastern tree stand hunter, then you could us anything).

 

[bmart2622]

^^^^^^^ I must have missed the numbers and data from your testing, can you post them again for me please?

 

[gretch6364]

^^^^^^^ I must have missed the numbers and data from your testing, can you post them again for me please?

I have not seen a single piece of data from anyone. Where is the listing of shooters and their times? Just a claim that they have seen many "world champions" that have a hard time using a tree.

 

[bmart2622]

Im guessing if you asked him for it, like he did you, you would get it

 

[bmart2622]

In the meantime, can we see your data?

 

[JohnJohnson]

My observation is with a tree and proper dope chart, dialing the scope is an extra step that typically de-stabilizes the gun when you take your hands off your anchors.

Your hands are off your anchor anyway to range the target so I don't get this?

Not to mention, I keep seeing videos of people saying their scopes are no longer tracking as accurately as they once were. There is no way all the constant dialing doesn't effect the durability and accuracy of a scope.

I'm starting to get the feeling you don't know what you're talking about. If your information source on this stuff is scaremongering videos of someone's Swarovski or Leupold that won't track, you should find a better source and they should get a scope that works.

And since you asked everyone in another comment, I dial with a MIL turret for elevation then hold for wind. Can you think of a reason other than "everyone else is wrong" that competition shooters do absolutely everything they can to dial for elevation and, as @hereinaz mentioned, when they do holdover-only stages their scores go down dramatically?

 

[gretch6364]

Your hands are off your anchor anyway to range the target so I don't get this?

I'm starting to get the feeling you don't know what you're talking about. If your information source on this stuff is scaremongering videos of someone's Swarovski or Leupold that won't track, you should find a better source and they should get a scope that works.

And since you asked everyone in another comment, I dial with a MIL turret for elevation then hold for wind. Can you think of a reason other than "everyone else is wrong" that competition shooters do absolutely everything they can to dial for elevation and, as @hereinaz mentioned, when they do holdover-only stages their scores go down dramatically?

I never said "everyone else is wrong." I said dialing isn't better for everyone (the other posters are the ones insisting they are right) and that people should try both ways to determine which is best for them.

I did say that the dials people purchase with yardage are dumb unless they are always shooting at the same elevation, with same weather and the same load. So I asked if they are using a turret with MIL/MOA, which you are the only person to answer.

The reason the others did not answer is because they know you still have to go through the same thought process to dial with a turret set to MIL/MOA, which is half the argument here...dialing is less thinking, which unless you are using a dial with yardage on it, is false.

If you have a reticle with a tree, there should be no difference in dialing to 5 MOA or holding your 5 MOA hashmark on the target.

Then, someone brings up an argument "you are already off the target to range,"....so the thinking is to spend twice as much time off the target and not on your scope? I guess if you are just shooting plates at the range that is fine.

 

[bmart2622]

So if someone has scope that dials in yardage and uses something like a BR4 rangefinder, they are dumb???

 

[bmart2622]

You mention a dope chart, so is your system to find the animal, range it, consult your dope chart, hold over and shoot? That's faster than ranging, dialing, shooting?

 

[gretch6364]

You mention a dope chart, so is your system to find the animal, range it, consult your dope chart, hold over and shoot? That's faster than ranging, dialing, shooting?

Are you only hunting on the eastern part of Montanah at the same elevation at all times? Or are you saying that you have one of those magical turrets marked in yardage that is correct at both 12,000 ft and 5,000 feet?

Please do let me know where I can get these magic turrets.


If you are sitting there using a computerized range finders that spits out MOA/MIL for you, if you had a tree, no, you would not have to consult your dope chart if the rangefinder is setup correctly. If you don't have that and your turret dials in MOA/MIL, you are looking at the same freaking information to know what to dial.

 

[bmart2622]

Im saying I have a rangefinder with a solver in it that tells me what moa to dial but since you mention it also has a mode to give you a solution if you happen to have a cds type turret that is accurate regardless of how the conditions youre shooting in differs from the conditions your turret wa built for. So its not a magical turret but a good rangefinder and since you asked you can get one from Revic!!! Anymore brain busters?!?!

 

[bmart2622]

How are you coming with that data?

 

[gretch6364]

How are you coming with that data?

It’s Friday night and we have received 30” in last 7 days with more in the way. I am drinking champagne, sitting in the hot tub and getting stoked to rip Highlands tomorrow and Ajax Sunday…so gonna be away from online forums for the next couple days.

 

[bmart2622]

You dont have any data...got it

 

[gretch6364]

You dont have any data...got it

Of course not. No one has data to support “everyone should try both ways and see what works best for them”

 

[hereinaz]

With proof/evidence from experience, optical systems and eye/brain patterns, there is a difference in precision between holding 5 mil and dialing.

Will it make a big enough difference, that depends on a few factors.

Just wanted to confirm they are not the same.

Visually, the eye can’t aim/focus as well outside of the “center” and most crosshairs are designed to maximize the eye’s natural stengths.

Optically, light bending and the reticle itself changes. It’s harder to get a clear picture at the edges.

When the brain has to work to find the hold spot on a grid, especially after you get into the lower part with wind. That extra mental effort taxes mental effort.

However, one can learn to use holds very fast. Military does it. But, their application is a little different than hunting, even though they have the one shot one kill mantra, reality is send a bullet fast and send another with correction faster.

Make your choice, but the reality of the “best” system is dialing but holding can be effective and you can learn to do that faster than most know how to dial with practice.

 

[General RE LEE]

I still think hold over is faster and more efficient in very low light conditions at sub 350 yard distances. I’ve personally had to completely come off the rifle and hold the turret close enough I could read the numbers to dial. No way Jose that is better than using a clear reticle and good glass.

 

[General RE LEE]

MidGa guy there’s no point dude we aren’t going to convince each other. You do you bud.

 

[hereinaz]

I still think hold over is faster and more efficient in very low light conditions at sub 350 yard distances. I’ve personally had to completely come off the rifle and hold the turret close enough I could read the numbers to dial. No way Jose that is better than using a clear reticle and good glass.

Agree. I might hold over too, though I am a dialer first.

There are exceptions to every rule. If a guy hunts within those exceptions the the general rule doesn’t apply.

Circumstances dictate technique, and absolutely that’s a situations where holding over is faster and precise enough that holding over is more than adequate and can be faster.

Although dialing is faster and more precise in general, you have identified a situation where a shooter who can dial and hold over would choose hold over. Or, a shooter might never feel a need to dial, even in bright light inside 350 yards.

This is no criticism, because your example is definitely perfect for showing there is a time and a place for everything. But, this is in the long range forum, and many barely consider 350 to be the start of long range.

There is a huge benefit from describing specific situations for all of us to pick up new ideas.

 

[General RE LEE]

Agree. I might hold over too, though I am a dialer first.

There are exceptions to every rule. If a guy hunts within those exceptions the the general rule doesn’t apply.

Circumstances dictate technique, and absolutely that’s a situations where holding over is faster and precise enough that holding over is more than adequate and can be faster.

Although dialing is faster and more precise in general, you have identified a situation where a shooter who can dial and hold over would choose hold over. Or, a shooter might never feel a need to dial, even in bright light inside 350 yards.

This is no criticism, because your example is definitely perfect for showing there is a time and a place for everything. But, this is in the long range forum, and many barely consider 350 to be the start of long range.

There is a huge benefit from describing specific situations for all of us to pick up new ideas.

Your post is too intellectual, reasonable and mature. Did you not know that you are supposed to be an absolutist and relinquishing your confirmation bias is weakness? You must go the way of the bushido and harakiri.