Long Range Hunting: Hold Over Reticle, Dial or Both?

[JohnJohnson]

I never said anything about being faster. I said better which means more accurate. Sure if you know all your ranges, know your drops, and there's no wind, holdovers could be pretty effective. But I also think the argument could be made that if you don't have the extra couple seconds to dial your scope, it's probably not a shot you should take anyways

Yeah, I don't get the idea of 500+ yard shots where taking an extra 2 seconds will ruin things. People are really taking snapshots at those distances? Plus a lot of us have rangefinders that tell us our elevation to dial. It's a lot easier to do that then look through 4 different DOPE charts finding the one for the magnification you're on.

 

[JJ1179]

I never said anything about being faster. I said better which means more accurate. Sure if you know all your ranges, know your drops, and there's no wind, holdovers could be pretty effective. But I also think the argument could be made that if you don't have the extra couple seconds to dial your scope, it's probably not a shot you should take anyways

Fair point. You didn’t say faster, you’re correct. My apologies.

Why in your opinion is it more accurate? Isn’t your BT developed off your load? So it takes into account your bullet grain, caliber, elevation, ambient temperature, etc,, correct? Well, what’s different about my holdovers? They are calculated the exact same way. All that information is input to determine my pins and crosshairs at each power magnification based on my load data. There’s no difference that I’m aware of. Also, what happens if you don’t have a zero stop on your BT and you go past zero and now you have no idea what your ranges are? Using holdovers eliminates this completely. I hunted with a guy that had that issue and he had no idea where he was shooting. He had to use a different rifle the remainder of the trip.

 

[Fire_9]

Fair point. You didn’t say faster, you’re correct. My apologies.

Why in your opinion is it more accurate? Isn’t your BT developed off your load? So it takes into account your bullet grain, caliber, elevation, ambient temperature, etc,, correct? Well, what’s different about my holdovers? They are calculated the exact same way. All that information is input to determine my pins and crosshairs at each power magnification based on my load data. There’s no difference that I’m aware of. Also, what happens if you don’t have a zero stop on your BT and you go past zero and now you have no idea what your ranges are? Using holdovers eliminates this completely. I hunted with a guy that had that issue and he had no idea where he was shooting. He had to use a different rifle the remainder of the trip.

Your drops are the same whether you hold them or dial them. That doesn't change. The problem comes from holding off the center of the reticle. It's my opinion that people have a better chance making a good shot when they're aiming closer to the center of the reticle. If you are dialing for elevation and holding wind, you are not in the center of the reticle but you're at least holding on the horizontal stadia. That's why I mentioned it would be easier to holdover when there's no wind. When there's no wind you can hold on the vertical stadia. Add wind into the equation and you're holding out in no mans land with unless you have some type of tree reticle. Not sure how much you've played the long range game but holding both wind and elevation sucks.

Yes not having a zero stop can be an issue. Returning your turret to zero every time you get off the gun can help eliminate that issue.

 

[JJ1179]

Yeah, I don't get the idea of 500+ yard shots where taking an extra 2 seconds will ruin things. People are really taking snapshots at those distances? Plus a lot of us have rangefinders that tell us our elevation to dial. It's a lot easier to do that then look through 4 different DOPE charts finding the one for the magnification you're on.

Why would I look through 4 dope charts figuring out what power I’m on? Do you assume that I just sit there and randomly spin my power magnification for fun and not know what power I’m on? No, I don’t. I keep it on the power I prefer and leave it. Probably similar to you!

I’m just throwing out some alternatives to BT scopes. Dialing in isn’t the ONLY effective method. I have killed plenty of deer and elk with my holdover reticle. I’m also trying to learn more about dials. I’m not trying to start a debate or argument.

Please understand that I’m not opposed to dialing in if that is what your medicine is. I was just looking to learn more about why everyone feels that it is more effective and accurate, and I have yet to learn that. It’s just personal opinions as to why. Holdovers and dialing in is based on the same data, as far as I’m aware.

 

[JJ1179]

Your drops are the same whether you hold them or dial them. That doesn't change. The problem comes from holding off the center of the reticle. It's my opinion that people have a better chance making a good shot when they're aiming closer to the center of the reticle. If you are dialing for elevation and holding wind, you are not in the center of the reticle but you're at least holding on the horizontal stadia. That's why I mentioned it would be easier to holdover when there's no wind. When there's no wind you can hold on the vertical stadia. Add wind into the equation and you're holding out in no mans land with unless you have some type of tree reticle. Not sure how much you've played the long range game but holding both wind and elevation sucks.

Yes not having a zero stop can be an issue. Returning your turret to zero every time you get off the gun can help eliminate that issue.

Ok, great point. I agree that holding close to or using the crosshair is more effective. That makes a lot of sense. That’s the kind of info I was looking for. Thank you!

Yes, I use a Christmas tree reticle with holdovers for range and wind, so I’m not necessarily out in “no man’s land”.

 

[General RE LEE]

I can say just dry firing practice out the window at different objects you previously ranged holding over is faster and requires less movement than dialing. Also your eye doesn’t leave the scope.

 

[General RE LEE]

8x on a SFP 16x 1 MOA reticle increases values to 2 MOA. 8x is a perfect magnification to see 400-500 yards and have a wide FOV to see the game’s response.

For hold over, you practice in the off season and know your reticle really well.

I’m not opposed to dialing at all. Just having a good ballistic reticle is an asset and may be a better option in some situations.

 

[JohnJohnson]

I keep it on the power I prefer and leave it. Probably similar to you!

That's not really remotely similar to what I do. I always start on minimum power for maximum FOV, then I zoom in once I acquire the animal in the scope. I'm not sure how common it is for people to treat their variable power scopes like fixed power scopes. I'd go as far as saying that most people are probably starting on minimum power.

 

[JJ1179]

That's not really remotely similar to what I do. I always start on minimum power for maximum FOV, then I zoom in once I acquire the animal in the scope. I'm not sure how common it is for people to treat their variable power scopes like fixed power scopes. I'd go as far as saying that most people are probably starting on minimum power.

No, I typically don’t leave it on the minimum power. That’s what I use my binoculars and spotting scope for.

So you’re telling me that you use your scope on minimum power to locate game, zoom in to your preferred power once you find animals, range the animal, dial in your scope, and take a shot? That’s a whole lot going on there.

I have my rifle on a bipod on my preferred setting in front of me if I’m glassing. I will glass the area I’m hunting as well as range “spots” so I know before I see something what the distances are. If I glass an animal in the area I’m looking and with a known range, I grab my rifle and shoot. No fiddle farting around with zooming in my scope, dialing in my turret, ranging the animal, etc.

 

[Fire_9]

8x on a SFP 16x 1 MOA reticle increases values to 2 MOA. 8x is a perfect magnification to see 400-500 yards and have a wide FOV to see the game’s response.

For hold over, you practice in the off season and know your reticle really well.

I’m not opposed to dialing at all. Just having a good ballistic reticle is an asset and may be a better option in some situations.

It's another tool in the toolbox. For your 'practice' I would suggest your add some stress to it. Everyone is full of great ideas until a little stress is induced and then they fall to pieces

 

[JJ1179]

What he said. It’s way different with a big buck or bull in front of you.

 

[JohnJohnson]

So you’re telling me that you use your scope on minimum power to locate game, zoom in to your preferred power once you find animals, range the animal, dial in your scope, and take a shot?

Why would I get my rifle on the animal only to then get off of it to use my rangefinder? I locate game using my binoculars or eyes, I then range that game, then I acquire the game in my scope on minimum power since that gives me the widest field of view for just getting the animal in the scope, then I zoom in however much I want, then I shoot.

 

[Marshfly]

Yeah, I don't get the idea of 500+ yard shots where taking an extra 2 seconds will ruin things. People are really taking snapshots at those distances?

They are and they are missing and wounding for the most part.

 

[JJ1179]

So you zoom in and shoot without dialing in your scope? At what point in the process does that take place? I’m not being rude or sarcastic. I’m honestly asking to learn more.

 

[JJ1179]

They are and they are missing and wounding for the most part.

No, not true at all. Taking shots and killing game.

 

[JohnJohnson]

So you zoom in and shoot without dialing in your scope?

I dial my scope as I'm shouldering my rifle, after ranging the animal but before acquiring it in my scope.

 

[JJ1179]

I dial my scope as I'm shouldering my rifle, after ranging the animal but before acquiring it in my scope.

Ok, understood. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Marshfly]

No, not true at all. Taking shots and killing game.

I didn't quote or single you out. What I said is happening. Anyone hunting public land in the west can see it happen for themselves. Especially during antelope season.

 

[JJ1179]

I didn't quote or single you out. What I said is happening. Anyone hunting public land in the west can see it happen for themselves. Especially during antelope season.

You’re right. Sorry. Definitely can’t disagree with you. But, it’s happening with a BT or holdover. Not just one or the other.

 

[Marshfly]

So you zoom in and shoot without dialing in your scope? At what point in the process does that take place? I’m not being rude or sarcastic. I’m honestly asking to learn more.

Scope on minimum power. FFP only for me. Range animal. Dial turret based on chart taped on scope that was verified earlier in the day based on atmospheric conditions. Dialing the turret takes 2 seconds...maybe. Get in the rifle and zoom for comfort. Who cares what power it is. Shoot.

If you are sitting somewhere for a while waiting for animals to come out, take a few seconds to range spots around you and see if you can dial to something that makes sense. Dialing to 200-250 yards will do for most rifles out to 350 on an elk.