Leg Training Q

[Roofer1]

First, excuse any fitness ignorance I'm pseudo self-taught. Have a sheep hunt coming up in about 6 weeks and have been hiking with a weighted pack since early April. Two or three days a week, 45 - 70 #'s, and between 2.5 to 3 miles. Am still doing about 3 days of resistance training (PPL) per week but leg days seem to be becoming less and less productive due to the fact the weighted hiking is really sucking the energy out of my legs. At 47 yo my ability to recover is defnitely diminshing. Will taper everything down about 10 days prior to leaving for my hunt, but between then and now do I just continue to push through and do it all? Guess I'm looking for input from anyone with more experience, or a similar experience.

 

[P Carter]

Will defer to the coaches on here, but it seems to me that as you approach the event, specificity becomes more important, so you could scale down the lifting and scale up the more specific (rucking with weight). Maybe scale back the lifting to maintenance only, could be done by reducing weight or reducing reps. Seems to me that the secondary activity shouldn’t interfere with the primary.

Separately, I questions whether 2.5-3 miles is going to get you to where you want to be, how much vert in those? But in any case, hard to change things too much in 6 weeks, and it seems a primary goal should be to avoid injury.

Again, I am not a coach or a pro, just my two cents.

 

[Coach Chris]

Am still doing about 3 days of resistance training (PPL) per week but leg days seem to be becoming less and less productive .

What do your lower body gym workouts entail?

 

[Roofer1]

Separately, I questions whether 2.5-3 miles is going to get you to where you want to be, how much vert in those?

The mileage is really all I've got for time at this point. Married, kids, business... all that malarky. Vertical wise it's about all I can find living in central WI. It's on the Kettle Moraine Trail system.

What do your lower body gym workouts entail?

At this point it's 4 working sets of high bar squats, step ups with DB's in each hand, and stiff leg deadlifts. Anything more than that and I sh!t the bed.

 

[Jbark60]

In my experience, recovery is just as important as training. You should spend equal time stretching and massaging worked muscles as you do working them. I lump nutrition and sleeping into recovery, staying away from processed foods, sugar, and get at least 7 hours of sleep a night.

 

[180ls1]

The mileage is really all I've got for time at this point. Married, kids, business... all that malarky. Vertical wise it's about all I can find living in central WI. It's on the Kettle Moraine Trail system.


At this point it's 4 working sets of high bar squats, step ups with DB's in each hand, and stiff leg deadlifts. Anything more than that and I sh!t the bed.

I would drop the more taxing/demanding lifts on your muscles and CNS - no deads or squats. Step ups are cool but at this point the stuff that focuses on raw strength can be done away with and really just focus on rucking/similar.

 

[Poser]

At this point it's 4 working sets of high bar squats, step ups with DB's in each hand, and stiff leg deadlifts. Anything more than that and I sh!t the bed.

IMO, you don't need to be doing any amount of work in the gym that makes you anywhere close to "sh!tting the bed" when combined with other training, especially something stressful as rucking.


With no other information, I'd drop the squats to 3 working sets of 5 reps each or even 3x3 if need be. At this stage in your training, that's probably going to be maintenance weight vs. progressively adding weight and you can maintain your strength with a 3x3 a week, though a light squat day may or may not be beneficial. When I'm super active, whether its backpacking every weekend or snowboarding 3-4 times a week, I drop to 3x3 working set with a 2nd light day of 3x5 and find it entirely sufficient and can go for 2-3 months straight without losing strength (though, I'm not getting any stronger either).

Drop the weighted step ups. They are redundant with the rucking. They would be useful offseason, though.

SLDL are super beneficial, though they can be extremely stressful. 1x5 working set once a week. You could add a backoff set (lighter weight) or 2 if you can handle the volume, but, if you can't, 1 heavy working set a week of deadlifts is sufficient stress for most guys your age who are otherwise active and doing stressful training outside the gym such as rucking, which is particularly stressful on your posterior chain. Ideally, you have a rest day from rucking the day after deadlifts.

That's juts my opinion. Coach Chris will likely have better advice.

 

[Coach Chris]

At this point it's 4 working sets of high bar squats, step ups with DB's in each hand, and stiff leg deadlifts. Anything more than that and I sh!t the bed.

You're doing too much
A typical pre-season program for my pro's
2 days a week, full body, Mon/Thurs or Tues/Fri kind of split.
One session is some kind of squat, hamstring curls, standing calf raise
The other day is some kind of deadlift, glute medius, seated calf raise and tibialis anterior
3 working sets of 3 reps on squat and deadlift
3 sets of 5 on the accessory lifts
Their upper body training is generally 3 sets of 5 reps except bench press which is also 3 x 3

You might want to choose between squat or step ups.
Despite what might be marketed or feel intuitive, nothing you can do in the gym carries over to the mountains. Gym training is GPP aka general physical preparation
Strength training is to build a better engine and try to become as injury resistant as possible.
Rucking is your SPP aka specific physical preparation.
Good Journey!

P.S. Sled drags can be of some benefit when very is lacking in your ruck training.

 

[V2Pnutrition]

First, excuse any fitness ignorance I'm pseudo self-taught. Have a sheep hunt coming up in about 6 weeks and have been hiking with a weighted pack since early April. Two or three days a week, 45 - 70 #'s, and between 2.5 to 3 miles. Am still doing about 3 days of resistance training (PPL) per week but leg days seem to be becoming less and less productive due to the fact the weighted hiking is really sucking the energy out of my legs. At 47 yo my ability to recover is defnitely diminshing. Will taper everything down about 10 days prior to leaving for my hunt, but between then and now do I just continue to push through and do it all? Guess I'm looking for input from anyone with more experience, or a similar experience.

Leg days are less productive because your legs are probably smoked. Especially if you've not have any deload/recovery weeks since April. There is a bell-shaped curve to productivity with training. Some is needed, more is good to add progressively over time, but your returns on the time invested will begin to diminish if you start exceeding the maximum amount that you can recover from. There's limited information here, but that sure is what it sounds like. (Factors like sleep, recovery, overall training volume, progression, nutrition, etc. are the variables that would be good to know alongside this).

A couple of ME-style days this close to your hunt should be more than sufficient to put you where you need to be.

Just as an example (not a "do this because I know it all"): we packed in 20-miles for 12-days last year on a sheep hunt. My final 8 weeks consisted of:

• a couple of longer, slow climbing style of endurance workouts (no weight, no pack),
• a 1-2 hour mountain bike ride,
• a tempo/interval day,
• a muscular-endurance style workout (I progressively added weight or rounds weekly).
• and a heavy weighted pack hike (1,000 feet vertical, 2-3 miles) X 1.
• 1 day of complete recovery.
• I took a recovery week every 4th week where I reduced the volume of all of it by 30-50% from the point that I started 12-16 weeks earlier.

I felt excellent for the entirety of the hunt- pack in, hunting, and the pack out.

Again, not a "this is what you should!", but an example.

Give yourself a recovery week to reduce the volume a little. Spend the rest of the time being intentional about the progressions bak up before your hunt.

Edit: And see @Coach Chris comments, haha! Posted at the same time.

 

[LCguy]

Try to throw in a deload week where you lift either very light or not at all. You'd be surprised how refreshed you will be after just 7 days. I try to program one deload week every eight weeks.

 

[TaperPin]

A lot of elevation gain in steep country is really hard to duplicate in the gym, but it’s also hard if you’re hiking with a weighted pack on rather flat terrain. Hopefully you’re getting good cardio and picking as much elevation gain as possible. Endurance and tendon/ligament toughness becomes more important than strength when on the mountain.

Others with actual programs will chime in, but my personal experience in Colorado and Wyoming when we’re stuck in the gym until snow melts, then we all want to do more than we should. There is no way around some things that have commonly caused problems across folks of all shapes and sizes, and fitness levels. This isn’t a blanket statement for everyone, but this is what is important to me every spring.

Calf raises because they are often the first to cause problems in steep terrain - you don’t even need to go crazy, but if you do a couple one leg sets to exhaustion without additional weight and walk funny the next day, you need to do more.

Leg extensions to strengthen quads for supporting the knee cap going down steep trails - if your quads are weak at the end of the day and let the knee cap drop and bruise the bone you might struggle to finish the trip. It’s a big one and if it’s ever taken you to the ortho doc you’ll be diligent about strong quads.

Leg curls to strengthen tendons in the back of the knee - early in the hiking season it’s a common problem even if all the leg muscles are plenty strong. Finally, squats or whatever you’re choosing to help muscles used stepping up onto those big rocks with a pack all day.

Cardio cardio cardio.

You’re at a good spot to make an effort to find a steep area for a long day hike with weight, even if you have to do a trail twice or three times and do some bush whacking to get those ankles and calves a workout. Boring as it might sound, if there is a better way to get instant feedback to what needs attention I don’t know what it is. It has to be enough to stress your legs real good without causing an injury. Without a good baseline you could be ripped with beach muscles and play well at cross fit gyms and still come up lame at the end of long grueling days. One of our sons is great at breaking fitness records, but at the end of a long day he’s sore and hobbling around like an old man because he doesn’t train for endurance/toughness as much as strength.

6 weeks away will come fast. On the days you aren’t hiking I’d load the pack up heavy and just wear it and your boots around the house, or around the block for an hour. The supporting secondary muscles in the feet, knees, hips, back and shoulders benefit a lot from this. It sounds simplistic, but it’s made such a big difference I consider it essential. Many backpacking friends have had complaints that would be easily prevented simply wearing a heavy pack an hour a day.

4 weeks out I’d start wearing your boots all weekend and all evening to do whatever you normally do, all day every day is better. 90% of sore feet and blisters on the trail are because boots aren’t worn enough to toughen up the skin and all the goodies under the skin. Other than calves, more guys are miserable from not wearing boots than anything else.

It might be technically a great idea to taper off, but I don’t. If I can’t keep up a few hours of working out every day I will be in trouble on the mountain. With only six weeks left I would want to make the most of it and would spend more time carrying heavy weight, not less. Of course this assumes you know your body well and are good at avoiding injury. As you get older, everything I’ve mentioned is even more important.

 

[Roofer1]

Appreciate all he intel! my nutrition is pretty dialed, around 230 grams of protein, 65 of good fats, and the rest in fruits and veggies to get me to about maintenance. @ about 230 - 235 is where I feel my best so trying to stay there. Have prioritized sleep but that still isn't what it should be. From years of running Wendler 5 3 1 just have a hard time not trying to continue to add weight to the bar. Again, thanks.

 

[P Carter]

Just two quick notes - will certainly defer to the pros on this one, but you may need some more carbs to fuel the training; you’re draining glycogen stores and not refilling them could contribute to some fatigue/lack of energy.

On mileage, totally understand lack of time, just note that training 5-9 miles and ?? of vert per *week* while hoping to do…I dunno, 5-9 miles with 3,000-6,000 feet of vert per *day* seems tough. (To be clear, I haven’t gone sheep hunting so I’m just guessing on the numbers.)

But then again, can’t get injured, so not sure what, I’d any, an appropriate adjustment would be.

 

[LCguy]

Yeah, I would echo what P Carter said about carbs. I'm also a similar similar weight to you and if I'm eating less than 85 grams of fats a day, my hormones get thrown off and I feel extremely tired and sluggish so might bump that up by a bit as well. You're probably good around 180-200 grams of protein and make up those cries in fats and carbs.

 

[Coach Chris]

From years of running Wendler 5 3 1 just have a hard time not trying to continue to add weight to the bar.

You absolutely have to continue to chase strength in order to maintain strength through high volumes of Strength - Endurance and Absolute Endurance training.

The compromise has to be in training volume in the gym. Your Maximum Recoverable Volume (MRV) is going to take a huge hit from rucking.

During scouting and hunting season I often just work up to max effort singles just to maintain Absolute Strength and call it good.
I minimize accessory lifts to triples.

 

[Roofer1]

During scouting and hunting season I often just work up to max effort singles just to maintain Absolute Strength and call it good.
I minimize accessory lifts to triples.

But what about my mirror muscles!!? appreciate the dose of reality. seems I've got caught in the trap of serving 2 masters. going to focus on simply maintaining strength in the big compounds and up the rucking times/vert.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Six weeks out? Looking at what you've been doing you've got a good base built assuming you have been training for sometime. If it was me I'd stick with 45-50# on the pack weight and stretch out the distance you have been hiking with the pack. Work on some core exercises as well which will help with balance and a weighted pack. I'd probably focus on those and less on the strength workouts imo.

My dall hunt we packed in 12-13 miles but the majority of it was up a river bottom. While the vertical wasn't terrible until we went up after the rams walking on a river bed with alot of uneven terrian and sand did get old and I wished I had trained for that more.

On the plus side was the guide generally allocated enough time to do the hike at a pretty easy pace not wanting to burn anyone out. But when it came time to climb 2500 up to the ridgetops my lungs and legs had been conditioned by hiking with a pack that they were ready even though most of my vertical training hikes were only about 1K elevation gain.

Key thing is don't get hurt at this stage of the game and make sure you have enough in the tank to do whatever it takes on your hunt.

 

[wytx]

I hope you're doing some abductor and adductor exercises, deadfall will kill you if not.
Get your cardio up tp par and the rest will follow, you really don't need to be able to carry everything off the mountain. Strong quads will suffice.

 

[LostArra]

Training isolated body parts has never been a good use of workout time for me.
Cardio Rucking Deadlifts and Squats would probably cover all my bases for my elk or deer hunting.
I bench press simply out of habit and it may carry over to archery some.

 

[mtnbound]

First, excuse any fitness ignorance I'm pseudo self-taught. Have a sheep hunt coming up in about 6 weeks and have been hiking with a weighted pack since early April. Two or three days a week, 45 - 70 #'s, and between 2.5 to 3 miles. Am still doing about 3 days of resistance training (PPL) per week but leg days seem to be becoming less and less productive due to the fact the weighted hiking is really sucking the energy out of my legs. At 47 yo my ability to recover is defnitely diminshing. Will taper everything down about 10 days prior to leaving for my hunt, but between then and now do I just continue to push through and do it all? Guess I'm looking for input from anyone with more experience, or a similar experience.

You don't specify the intensity of your rucks, but I suggest dropping one of the ruck days and opting for an unloaded walk or another form of zone 2 cardio to enhance your recovery.