Lead it go

[30338]

Curious about how you know where the lead poisoning came from in this eagle?

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

I was not a believer until I picked up a golden eagle on a hunt. Took it too a local rescue. It died from lead poisoning several days later.
It was one of the most incredible animals I have ever seen or handled. It broke my heart knowing its death was 100% avoidable.
I mostly shoot copper now and have been impressed with the results. I do sling lead for specific situations still(over 800 yards). For most hunters there is no need to use lead. But that aint for the government to decide.
It 100% without a doubt kills birds. No arguing with that, unless you wear a tin foil hat.

Agree lead can kill things. Proving that lead projectiles are the cause of lead poisoning in some of these cases is debatable based on the condor study somebody cited already.

The point is, it is too convenient for environmental and animal rights groups to try and ban lead bullets, because they may kill a small number of raptors every year, while at the same time looking the other way at windmills that kill more raptors (and other birds) annually. The agenda and hypocrisy are obvious.

Feral cats kill hundreds of thousands of song birds, some endangered, ever year. I don't see a push to ban outdoor cats.

 

[WRO]

I was not a believer until I picked up a golden eagle on a hunt. Took it too a local rescue. It died from lead poisoning several days later.
It was one of the most incredible animals I have ever seen or handled. It broke my heart knowing its death was 100% avoidable.
I mostly shoot copper now and have been impressed with the results. I do sling lead for specific situations still(over 800 yards). For most hunters there is no need to use lead. But that aint for the government to decide.
It 100% without a doubt kills birds. No arguing with that, unless you wear a tin foil hat.

Those things are hell on wild sheep, fawns, and lambs.

A little population control never hurts..

 

[Wrench]

I was not a believer until I picked up a golden eagle on a hunt. Took it too a local rescue. It died from lead poisoning several days later.
It was one of the most incredible animals I have ever seen or handled. It broke my heart knowing its death was 100% avoidable.
I mostly shoot copper now and have been impressed with the results. I do sling lead for specific situations still(over 800 yards). For most hunters there is no need to use lead. But that aint for the government to decide.
It 100% without a doubt kills birds. No arguing with that, unless you wear a tin foil hat.

How did you determine that it died from lead poisoning attributed to a hunter killed animal? Could it have been from fish, mollusk or crustaceans? Could it be from food left on an old painted table? Could it be from manipulated data collection?

 

[Fetty Wapiti]

How did you determine that it died from lead poisoning attributed to a hunter killed animal? Could it have been from fish, mollusk or crustaceans? Could it be from food left on an old painted table? Could it be from manipulated data collection?

They use x rays, and it is pretty evident in the area the eagle was that it was most likely due to feeding on carcasses. This was in Wyoming. One tiny lead fragment from a bullet is a ton for a bird to eat. Think many lifetimes of lead accumulation from eating fish in just one bite.
I have friends that work at rehab centers and the problem is larger than one would believe.
The fact that lead kills birds is undeniable, but I guess there are some folks that still think the Earth is flat... so...
I do not think it should be against the law to use lead, but I do think far more would make the switch if they knew the facts and also understood how well copper bullets kill (besides Barnes, which are trash).
Lead has a higher BC, it also "generally" opens at lower velocity. However, these are benefits most hunters gain nothing from at reasonable hunting ranges (sub 700 ish yards, depending on cartridge)
I have yet to ever see a copper bullet (Hammer, MCguire) fail if minimum velocities are met. I have seen many lead bullets fail well above minimum expansion velocity. Bergers don't open at times, ELDM's explode, etc. Not with a good copper projectile.
I can push my lead free rounds faster and more efficiently in shorter barreled set ups, which is sweet!
They are better for bear defense.
They penetrate better, so shot angle/placement is less of a consideration with quartering shots at any range.
For now lead is only used in my extreme long range hunting rifles and for competitions due to cost and BC.

 

[Fetty Wapiti]

Those things are hell on wild sheep, fawns, and lambs.

A little population control never hurts..

As long as sheep hunting stays a rich mans sport and as long as folks are grazing domestic sheep in the west, the last thing I am worried about is eagle predation.

 

[WRO]

As long as sheep hunting stays a rich mans sport and as long as folks are grazing domestic sheep in the west, the last thing I am worried about is eagle predation.

Funny, I’ve been on multiple sheep hunts in the lower 48 and not one person I’ve been with is rich, all were draw tags. If we had more sheep, there would be more tags.

totally agree on no land maggots on public land, that being said, 2 wrongs don’t make a right.

 

[30338]

Its always the guys using Hammer bullets that seem to get off on this stuff. It gets worked into almost every thread this comes up in. "I use hammers and blah blah blah. I'll keep shooting Bergers into and behind shoulders. I've never had a Berger fail so I guess I'll disagree on that too.

I drive from Denver to central Kansas a lot. The sheer number of windmills that are decimating hawks and eagles out there is amazing.

 

[Bubblehide]

They use x rays, and it is pretty evident in the area the eagle was that it was most likely due to feeding on carcasses. This was in Wyoming. One tiny lead fragment from a bullet is a ton for a bird to eat. Think many lifetimes of lead accumulation from eating fish in just one bite.
I have friends that work at rehab centers and the problem is larger than one would believe.
The fact that lead kills birds is undeniable, but I guess there are some folks that still think the Earth is flat... so...
I do not think it should be against the law to use lead, but I do think far more would make the switch if they knew the facts and also understood how well copper bullets kill (besides Barnes, which are trash).
Lead has a higher BC, it also "generally" opens at lower velocity. However, these are benefits most hunters gain nothing from at reasonable hunting ranges (sub 700 ish yards, depending on cartridge)
I have yet to ever see a copper bullet (Hammer, MCguire) fail if minimum velocities are met. I have seen many lead bullets fail well above minimum expansion velocity. Bergers don't open at times, ELDM's explode, etc. Not with a good copper projectile.
I can push my lead free rounds faster and more efficiently in shorter barreled set ups, which is sweet!
They are better for bear defense.
They penetrate better, so shot angle/placement is less of a consideration with quartering shots at any range.
For now lead is only used in my extreme long range hunting rifles and for competitions due to cost and BC.

There has been and continues to be a ridiculous assumption that the source is from lead bullets. Lead naturally occurs in the environment. Birds (several species) have been documented ingesting naturally occurring lead fragments. That is an undeniably fact. The latest condor data more than strongly indicates that lead bullets are NOT the source of lead poisoning for condors. To continue to insist the condor source is lead bullets is scientifically ridiculous and disingenuous. Such people should be laughed out of the scientific community. Unfortunately such unscrupulous people have infiltrated the scientific community and continue to spew their agenda.

 

[Fetty Wapiti]

Its always the guys using Hammer bullets that seem to get off on this stuff. It gets worked into almost every thread this comes up in. "I use hammers and blah blah blah. I'll keep shooting Bergers into and behind shoulders. I've never had a Berger fail so I guess I'll disagree on that too.

I drive from Denver to central Kansas a lot. The sheer number of windmills that are decimating hawks and eagles out there is amazing.

I see a lot of animals get shot every year, if you have a large enough sample size you will see a Berger failure. They shoot well, but I would never trust one on a hunt I cared about.

The windmills! Yeah birds flying into them is just the tip of the iceberg. The noise and sound pollution they create is a huge problem that never gets talked about. There are many species of birds, some that are listed, that cant even reproduce near them. Don't get me started on wind energy! lol

 

[Wrench]

They use x rays, and it is pretty evident in the area the eagle was that it was most likely due to feeding on carcasses. This was in Wyoming. One tiny lead fragment from a bullet is a ton for a bird to eat. Think many lifetimes of lead accumulation from eating fish in just one bite.
I have friends that work at rehab centers and the problem is larger than one would believe.
The fact that lead kills birds is undeniable, but I guess there are some folks that still think the Earth is flat... so...
I do not think it should be against the law to use lead, but I do think far more would make the switch if they knew the facts and also understood how well copper bullets kill (besides Barnes, which are trash).
Lead has a higher BC, it also "generally" opens at lower velocity. However, these are benefits most hunters gain nothing from at reasonable hunting ranges (sub 700 ish yards, depending on cartridge)
I have yet to ever see a copper bullet (Hammer, MCguire) fail if minimum velocities are met. I have seen many lead bullets fail well above minimum expansion velocity. Bergers don't open at times, ELDM's explode, etc. Not with a good copper projectile.
I can push my lead free rounds faster and more efficiently in shorter barreled set ups, which is sweet!
They are better for bear defense.
They penetrate better, so shot angle/placement is less of a consideration with quartering shots at any range.
For now lead is only used in my extreme long range hunting rifles and for competitions due to cost and BC.

That's interesting. Google tells me that golden eagles digest food within a day and regurgitate the undigested portions as a pellet. Acute lead poisoning in birds is said to take 2-4 weeks.

If it was in an x-ray and it was dead....it must have been shot....which is fatal lead poisoning.

 

[Fetty Wapiti]

There has been and continues to be a ridiculous assumption that the source is from lead bullets. Lead naturally occurs in the environment. Birds (several species) have been documented ingesting naturally occurring lead fragments. That is an undeniably fact. The latest condor data more than strongly indicates that lead bullets are NOT the source of lead poisoning for condoms. To continue to insist the condor source is lead bullets is scientifically ridiculous and disingenuous. Such people should be laughed out of the scientific community. Unfortunately such unscrupulous people have infiltrated the scientific community and continue to spew their agenda.

I wasn't talking about condoms or condors.

With eagles feeding on carcasses the scientific evidence is pretty darn cut and dry. When you x ray a dead eagle feeding on Hunter killed gut piles and it is full of lead... and you run a toxicology report... and... and...

Lead bullet fragments come from bullets... not from lead pain, fish, etc.

 

[CJ19]

I like people being able to choose what they shoot. Plus, I am pretty tired of being lectured to by the conservation and environmental community on this issue and a lot of others. I find it irritating that I am being lectured to by the environmental and conservation community about how shooting copper is saving raptors when US Fish and Wildlife and the Raptor/Eagle Community is engaging in cap and trade practices for "Eagle Credits" with major US energy companies. Like WTF? I am supposed to have the raptor community come lecture to me about using copper so I don't hurt Eagles with money that was raised through Windmills blending eagles or eagles getting zapping on high tension lines ? In the lawsuit I linked on Page 1 of this thread, the National Wildlife Federation, Sierra Club, and numerous other so called conservation or environmental organizations literally submitted federal court briefs in support of energy companies to stop revocation of the 2024 change to the Eagle Rule which established a compensatory mitigation system so wind and renewable companies could just pay a "incidental take permit" fee into this system so raptor organization could buy and trade the death credits.

It just does not feel like its really about the eagles with this lead free ammo push we are seeing to me.




US Gov Site on the Eagle Act and 2024 Updates

Eagle Incidental Take Wind Energy Permits | U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service

www.fws.gov

Webinar on Lecturing Hunters about Lead Free Ammo as way to make up for your windmills or powerlines killing eagles.

Lead-Free Ammunition Programs as Compensatory Mitigation Tools: Hunter incentives and education [Webinar] - Renewable Energy Wildlife Institute

rewi.org

You can buy and trade eagle death credits here. Link from US FW site.

Mitigation Banking USA

Mitigation banks provide regulatory certainty for clients seeking to save time and money with a pre-approved solution to environmental permitting challenges. Conservation banks and wetland banks both protect and conserve species habitat, sensitive resources and wetland habitats.

info.burnsmcd.com

Buy Credits — Eagle ILF Program

www.eaglemitigation.com

 

[Fetty Wapiti]

I like people being able to choose what they shoot. Plus, I am pretty tired of being lectured to by the conservation and environmental community on this issue and a lot of others. I find it irritating that I am being lectured to by the environmental and conservation community about how shooting copper is saving raptors when US Fish and Wildlife and the Raptor/Eagle Community is engaging in cap and trade practices for "Eagle Credits" with major US energy companies. Like WTF? I am supposed to have the raptor community come lecture to me about using copper so I don't hurt Eagles with money that was raised through Windmills blending eagles or eagles getting zapping on high tension lines ? In the lawsuit I linked on Page 1 of this thread, the National Wildlife Federation, Sierra Club, and numerous other so called conservation or environmental organizations literally submitted federal court briefs in support of energy companies to stop revocation of the 2024 change to the Eagle Rule which established a compensatory mitigation system so wind and renewable companies could just pay a "incidental take permit" fee into this system so raptor organization could buy and trade the death credits. The conservation and environmental big boys were like...nah they should get these permits and if they kill some eagles they can just pay a fee so someone else can go lecture hunters about lead free ammo.

It just does not feel like its really about the eagles with this lead free ammo push we are seeing to me.




US Gov Site on the Eagle Act and 2024 Updates

Eagle Incidental Take Wind Energy Permits | U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service

www.fws.gov

Webinar on Lecturing Hunters about Lead Free Ammo as way to make up for your windmills or powerlines killing eagles.

Lead-Free Ammunition Programs as Compensatory Mitigation Tools: Hunter incentives and education [Webinar] - Renewable Energy Wildlife Institute

rewi.org

You can buy and trade eagle death credits here. Link from US FW site.

Mitigation Banking USA

Mitigation banks provide regulatory certainty for clients seeking to save time and money with a pre-approved solution to environmental permitting challenges. Conservation banks and wetland banks both protect and conserve species habitat, sensitive resources and wetland habitats.

info.burnsmcd.com

Buy Credits — Eagle ILF Program

www.eaglemitigation.com

Preach man! This is the way and I agree 100%. I think you should be able to shoot whatever you damn well please. I am simply stating that lead fragments do kill birds. That is undeniable. Using laws to regulate lead use is just dumb. Like banning plastic bags, but all our food still comes wrapped in plastic.

I choose to limit my lead use for personal reasons, that is all. I don't give a flying you know what someone shoots, that is their choice. But they would be better served avoiding Berger builds at all costs lol

 

[30338]

I see a lot of animals get shot every year, if you have a large enough sample size you will see a Berger failure. They shoot well, but I would never trust one on a hunt I cared about.

The windmills! Yeah birds flying into them is just the tip of the iceberg. The noise and sound pollution they create is a huge problem that never gets talked about. There are many species of birds, some that are listed, that cant even reproduce near them. Don't get me started on wind energy! lol

In fairness, I've got a pretty good sample size lol. I'll keep waiting for that to happen.

 

[mt terry d]

Dying "with" or "from" are two very different things.
And someone claiming definitively"from"
I'd like to know exactly how it is determined where "from" actually came from.
And what percentage came from where.

Never forget: Trust the science = "safe and effective".

 

[Bubblehide]

I wasn't talking about condoms or condors.

With eagles feeding on carcasses the scientific evidence is pretty darn cut and dry. When you x ray a dead eagle feeding on Hunter killed gut piles and it is full of lead... and you run a toxicology report... and... and...

Lead bullet fragments come from bullets... not from lead pain, fish, etc.

@Wrench reply covered your response well. Obviously your not considering the science of what your stating, or lack there of.