Large caliber vs. small caliber debate

[eric1115]

Hold up I have a question. If recoil is the monster we are all trying to fight why does it seem that most of us use suppressors instead of 4 port brakes?
would a braked 22 creed not be the holy grail?
Who hunts with one instead of suppressed?

Are you genuinely interested in understanding? Or are you just stirring the pot? I'll bite assuming the first.

This whole thing revolves around thresholds and optimizing as many factors as possible. No one is trying to truly maximize or minimize any one factor.

We don't minimize recoil (not truly). No one shoots a .22lr for elk because it doesn't meet the threshold for minimum acceptable wound channel.

We don't maximize wound channel. Almost no one shoots a .470 Nitro Express for Florida whitetail.

We don't even maximize the multiple "shootability" factors combined once we hit that wound channel threshold. No one carries a suppressed 40lb .223 into the mountains to hunt with.

If we meet the threshold for desired wound channel, then we look to optimize for shootability. Recoil is part of that, and if we get that down below a (admittedly fuzzy) threshold, then blast, noise, ear pro considerations, and animals' reaction to the shot start to become more important factors than bringing recoil to an absolute minimum.

 

[FredH]

I’ve had hundreds of shooters of all skill levels say the same or similar things. From their first time shooting a rifle being that day, to professional shooters from several different disciplines, to the “above average shooter” who likes to hunt…

In the same rifle, in the same weight, setup in the same position, you do not and will not have higher hit rates with your unbaked 300 magnum than your 22-250. That’s only a “thing” that exists on the internet. When it’s actually put to the test in real life, the amount of guys who have eaten a slice of humble pie would surprise you.

He did not say he had a "higher" hit rate. He said with his first shot he had an equal hit rate.

 

[Justin Crossley]

This is not that complicated. There are two groups of shooters.

One group KNOWS you will shoot a rifle with lighter recoil better in field positions.

The other group hasn't tried it.

This is probably the dumbest debate going on Rokslide right now.

 

[Flyjunky]

I’ve had hundreds of shooters of all skill levels say the same or similar things. From their first time shooting a rifle being that day, to professional shooters from several different disciplines, to the “above average shooter” who likes to hunt…

In the same rifle, in the same weight, setup in the same position, you do not and will not have higher hit rates with your unbaked 300 magnum than your 22-250. That’s only a “thing” that exists on the internet. When it’s actually put to the test in real life, the amount of guys who have eaten a slice of humble pie would surprise you.

Have you seen any point where things “even out”? You stated same rifle, same weight, etc.

Say you have a 7lb .223 or 7.5lb 6.5 creed and then an 10.5lb 7prc, does weight start to even the score within reason? I’m talking more about hunting rifle weights, not comp guns.

 

[FredH]

Do you think this is caused by the shooter flinching due to recoil? Or caused by recoil affecting the bullet before it exits the barrel?

Aren't all rifles sighted in while recoiling? If the shooter is not one to flinch while shooting his rifle, whatever it is chambered for and the rifle is properly sighted in then recoil doesn't matter does it?

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

He did not say he had a "higher" hit rate. He said with his first shot he had an equal hit rate.

That was probably worded poorly by me sorry. Higher and equal can be used interchangeably here in what I’ve seen, generally speaking of course.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Have you seen any point where things “even out”? You stated same rifle, same weight, etc.

Say you have a 7lb .223 or 7.5lb 6.5 creed and then an 10.5lb 7prc, does weight start to even the score within reason? I’m talking more about hunting rifle weights, not comp guns.

For 6.5PRC is has more than double the free recoil energy of a .223 in the same weight gun.

So you would start to see things getting closer to evening out with a gun that is more than double the weight.

I’d need to dig up some old spreadsheets from my PC at home to post actual numbers of weights and recoil energy, etc. Unfortunately I’m currently on a rental car shuttle in Northern California hating my life haha.

 

[FredH]

This is not that complicated. There are two groups of shooters.

One group KNOWS you will shoot a rifle with lighter recoil better in field positions.

The other group hasn't tried it.

This is probably the dumbest debate going on Rokslide right now.

The dumbest aspect is thinking those who shoot heavier recoiling rifles don't also shoot lighter recoiling rifles. I don't take my 270 coyote hunting though I have killed coyotes with it while hunting other species. My coyote rifles comprise of a 243, a 6Grendle, a 223, and a 22-250. I generally take a 270, a 30-06 or a 7MM RM on out of state big game hunts. On my property I will hunt with anything that I fancy at the moment. This could include a 223, 22 ARC or 6 Grendel. I also have a 7-08 and 7x57 that I am fond of hunting with.

 

[bergie]

Why do you think there is animosity? Certainly none from my side towards anybody.

haha now thats my kind of humor.

I am sure once (if?) I pick a side that my side will not have any animosity either. Luckily there is no one who will spank me and take away my birthday if I don't make a decision any time soon.

You know who both the big and small caliber guys can gang up on though is those damn bow hunters. Those arrows dont have proper wallop to knock an elk down, nor do they cause mass trauma with a temporary stretch cavity that makes the internal organs 'soup'.

 

[wind gypsy]

Hold up I have a question. If recoil is the monster we are all trying to fight why does it seem that most of us use suppressors instead of 4 port brakes?
would a braked 22 creed not be the holy grail?
Who hunts with one instead of suppressed?

If we're discussing recoil's impact on precision based upon recoil that happens before the bullet exits the bore, a brake should have basically no impact in that short time period because the gasses have not yet hit the ports and started to oppose direction of recoil.

The other negatives of recoil (shot anticipation, flinching) would be a different discussion.

 

[TaperPin]

Have you seen any point where things “even out”? You stated same rifle, same weight, etc.

Say you have a 7lb .223 or 7.5lb 6.5 creed and then an 10.5lb 7prc, does weight start to even the score within reason? I’m talking more about hunting rifle weights, not comp guns.

This is a perfect correlation to a prairie dog hunt - a varmint weight 7 mag and lightweight gun of any caliber you want - there is no way no how the lighter gun will come out on top, except in Internet forums. Lol

 

[deerhunter628]

Sure! I’ll be back to AZ Christmas Eve (just landed in CA visiting family). I’ll be able to get a video posted up sometime just after Christmas.

If you can shoot a smaller cartridge 30 rounds MOA or better do you think you can not shoot a bigger cartridge MOA or better. I look forward to watching the video, but if you can do it i would say you are a much better than average shooter. I dont think the average shooter can shoot any cartridge 30 rounds MOA or better. I would think with your skill if you took your time you could also do it with a larger cartridge.

 

[FredH]

For 6.5PRC is has more than double the free recoil energy of a .223 in the same weight gun.

So you would start to see things getting closer to evening out with a gun that is more than double the weight.

I’d need to dig up some old spreadsheets from my PC at home to post actual numbers of weights and recoil energy, etc. Unfortunately I’m currently on a rental car shuttle in Northern California hating my life haha.

Seems odd that recoil energy is taken so seriously yet Kinetic energy is regularly dismissed as useless. Both are figured with the same formulae.

 

[Thegman]

Since I have some loose change, another 2 cents:

I was thinking of this discussion in terms of various backpacks. I carry an ultralight pack that's easy to carry up and down mountains and crawl through alders and other crap, which is 98% of its use. When it comes time to pack out meat it gets the job done well enough. A Barney's freighter would be better to have for the meat hauling, but a pain at times for the other 98%.

Maybe the Barney's guys would point out that their pack is clearly better for hauling heavy loads, and they'd be correct. But mine is good enough at that for me, and way better at the other 98% of the stuff it has to do. If I was a guide, and 50% of my time was hauling heavy ass loads, the picture would look different. A good/perfectly adequate solution is going to depend on the individual's situation.

Big guns kill stuff, little guns kill stuff, they all kill stuff. Figuring out what works best for your situation is the fun part.

 

[Flynhunt]

There is only one way to find out: modify the drill with fewer rounds and see how it goes for yourself. I feel the 20 rounds show the ability to be consistent with every shot.

I’ll have to give it a try. Another test I would like to see is cold bore shots. Two rifles set up identically, equally accurate, only difference is caliber. 100 shots each gun. Only one shot is fired per day (test would need 200 days), so no flinch impulse is introduced from successive shots in the same shooting session. Now if I only had a range in the backyard and didn’t have to work!

 

[Ucsdryder]

Aren't all rifles sighted in while recoiling? If the shooter is not one to flinch while shooting his rifle, whatever it is chambered for and the rifle is properly sighted in then recoil doesn't matter does it?

I’m not going to argue with @mxgsfmdpx, I think he has enough experience seeing a lot of shooters to know that he can hand a guy a 22cm and a 7PRC and see a difference with MOST shooters. I also bet that if @mxgsfmdpx shot 2, 5 shot groups with a 7PRC and a 22cm, both suppressed, that the difference in group size would be negligible, especially for a hunting rifle. (that was a compliment, I hope you remember it like you remember all of forms posts!)

I know personally that I shot my 7saum better than an identical 6.5cm, same action and stock. I also shoot my 300nmi as well as my 7saum, but that’s prone. If I was shooting offhand or in some odd position, it might change. I think a lot of these arguments are generalized off Joe Blow Hunter, and I don’t think a lot of people on here necessarily fit that mold.

 

[TaperPin]

What also seems to work its way into discussions is the misguided attempt to say “field position” as if long range shots aren’t taken from very stable positions. Beyond 400 yards when long range is just starting, everyone is resting over a pack or using a bipod. There’s no guessing how well someone shoots different recoils levels - simply shoot the gun and there’s your answer - the idea someone shoots xx MOA, but somehow will have horrible accuracy while hunting is laughable.

 

[FredH]

I also believe this. Problem is “good fundamentals” and a “good rest” lots of times go right out the window when a big buck or bull presents itself.

In that hypothesis the cartridge has no overt effect on the accuracy of the shot. It is all on the shooter. Some would say a rifle pushing a heavier bullet of good construction, say the 140gr. Nosler Partition started at a mild 2700 fps has an edge in usable shot angles and penetration over a fragmenting 77 gr. TMK. started at simlar speed. For average hog hunting I would argue this is true.

 

[FredH]

I like to hunt without ear-pro, so a suppressor is my choice. Brakes do work but are loud and obnoxious IMO.

I would argue that muzzle blast can affect some shooters worse than recoil. Depends what a person is sensitive to.

 

[FredH]

I’m not going to argue with @mxgsfmdpx, I think he has enough experience seeing a lot of shooters to know that he can hand a guy a 22cm and a 7PRC and see a difference with MOST shooters. I also bet that if @mxgsfmdpx shot 2, 5 shot groups with a 7PRC and a 22cm, both suppressed, that the difference in group size would be negligible, especially for a hunting rifle. (that was a compliment, I hope you remember it like you remember all of forms posts!)

I know personally that I shot my 7saum better than an identical 6.5cm, same action and stock. I also shoot my 300nmi as well as my 7saum, but that’s prone. If I was shooting offhand or in some odd position, it might change. I think a lot of these arguments are generalized off Joe Blow Hunter, and I don’t think a lot of people on here necessarily fit that mold.

I hunt hogs at night after deer season. Some years I take a hundred hogs. Virtually all are shot unsupported while standing. with the rifle resting on my left thumb and a spotlight in that hand. Shots taken are usually under 100 yards. I have used many different cartridges in this endeavor. My favorite is one that balances well for offhand shooting, a 7x57. Best performing bullets have been bullets from 140 to 175 grains that usually provide exits. The best performing overall rifle I have used doing this is a 35 Whelen pushing 250 grain bullets at a leisurely 2300 fps. Exits every time so far and short bloody trails leading to a quickly dead hog of any size so far up to 350 pounds. I have not yet tested a TMK in this endeavor but have used many .224 bullets from both 223 and 22-250 rifles. In comparison their performance has been lackluster. Soon I will put the 22 ARC to work using the 80 gr. ELDM. It would be nice to see if it compares to my 7x57 in efficiently killing hogs.