Kyrgyzstan Ibex Permits

[WalterH]

A good friend and hunting partner went through a giant and massively expensive headache trying to get his trophies home after a hunt with Asian Mountain Outfitters in Tajiskistan a few years ago. I helped him work through some of the issues and learned some things in that process that may be of interest to others in a similar situation.

This is my general understanding and may not be the case or applicable in all places or for other species. We were dealing with Argali and Ibex.

The way the permits are supposed to be issued for these CITES animals is that the country hosting the hunt is given approval for a certain quota of these animals country wide, usually divided up between a few areas and guide services. The countries do their own population surveys, report their findings to a CITES board, and then the board approves harvest quotas that are then administered by each country.

Each guide service is supposed to issue hunting permits to their booked hunters in advance of the hunt and then report back to their govt the names of the approved hunters with permit numbers etc. That list is then supposed to be shared with whatever country the trophies are going to be imported into so that the permits and hunters can be vetted. Here in the US that is handled by US Fish and Wildlife and USDA. Hunters importing these trophies into the US need a CITES import permit from USFWS along with copies of their hunting permit and CITES export permit from the country of origin, among other things.

The way that it seems like things are actually going with this process in the foreign countries is that guide services and governments are selling as many hunts as they can, and then trying to pencil whip the paperwork after the fact to include all manner of bribes and foreign government corruption. This seems to be leading to trophies sitting around, in some cases for years, and in a few instances hunters never getting them at all.

We were told by someone involved in the process that the US was going to stop allowing Argali imports at some point because of the corruption and zero monitoring and enforcement of CITES guidelines by various foreign countries involved. They have no way to ensure the animals are legally taken in compliance with CITES etc. Not sure where that is at.

If I was going to embark on a foreign hunt, knowing what I do now, I would insist on having copies of my hunting permit and paperwork provided before the hunt, and I sure as shit wouldn't leave the country without my trophies, overseeing the export permit and shipping myself. Once you are down the road, some of these problems are really expensive, if not impossible to solve.

I am sure I don't have some of this right as it was a confusing mess to try to short through. Please offer corrections or additions if someone here knows more.

If anyone has had a similar experience or has been screwed over by shady guides or business operators over there, feel free to shoot me a PM as I have more I can share.

Good luck.

 

[Short Track]

Please share in public. Getting an IBEX is on my bucket list. But not sure it's worth the effort & hassle to make it happen before and after.

 

[buzzy]

Please share in public. Getting an IBEX is on my bucket list. But not sure it's worth the effort & hassle to make it happen before and after.

It’s an amazing hunt and place to visit. Relatively speaking it’s also an affordable hunt. If you can’t bring your ibex home with you pictures and the experience are well worth the price of admission. Go have fun and not worry about getting the trophy home. Just do your due diligence on picking an outfitter as there are several good ones available.

 

[snider6464]

It seems that WalterH is fairly spot on. I have hunted variety of species in various country's and it seems the cities process is being toyed with not only from the country that is exporting but the country that is importing as well.

Last time I went to Kyrgyzstan in 2019 we were able to get cities permits and bring our ibex home with us. Upon arrival into the US we declared them. The usfw officer told us that since our forms were in Russian that he would not accept then. But decided to just let us walk with them anyway. I am headed back in 2 weeks. Hopefully we can have papar work again. And this time the agent in the US side will be able to process it correctly. From my understanding the usa also sets numbers for how many of a cities animal can be imported. One of our friends from New Zealand was on the trip and did not have to make prior arrangements to import an argali vs one member of our group in the USA waited almost a year to import his due to USA side holding him up.

I have waited for almost 2 years on cities permits for Barbary sheep from mexico. Again it seems to be totally political. The USA claimed that Mexico was not fulfilling the cities agreements correctly and forced a stop to Mexican imports. But on the same side, the outfitter should have had permits arranged ahead of time. So it's very difficult to point fingers.

My suggestion is try to find an exporter beforehand in the event that things go south with your outfitter. Most of the "outfitters" in mid Asia are just hunt brokers and have nothing to do with anything other than doubling the hunt price to explain in English how the hunt will be. The true outfitter is the one that is arranging the hunt and getting the paperwork. International hunting in the form that we know it will not be around forever. My suggestion is to go and enjoy as much as possible. Will things go as planned and will you get everything back in perfect condition or timely manner, probably not. But one day you'll be old and all you'll have is memories of the good times.

 

[medvedyt]

A good friend and hunting partner went through a giant and massively expensive headache trying to get his trophies home after a hunt with Asian Mountain Outfitters in Tajiskistan a few years ago. I helped him work through some of the issues and learned some things in that process that may be of interest to others in a similar situation.

This is my general understanding and may not be the case or applicable in all places or for other species. We were dealing with Argali and Ibex.

The way the permits are supposed to be issued for these CITES animals is that the country hosting the hunt is given approval for a certain quota of these animals country wide, usually divided up between a few areas and guide services. The countries do their own population surveys, report their findings to a CITES board, and then the board approves harvest quotas that are then administered by each country.

Each guide service is supposed to issue hunting permits to their booked hunters in advance of the hunt and then report back to their govt the names of the approved hunters with permit numbers etc. That list is then supposed to be shared with whatever country the trophies are going to be imported into so that the permits and hunters can be vetted. Here in the US that is handled by US Fish and Wildlife and USDA. Hunters importing these trophies into the US need a CITES import permit from USFWS along with copies of their hunting permit and CITES export permit from the country of origin, among other things.

The way that it seems like things are actually going with this process in the foreign countries is that guide services and governments are selling as many hunts as they can, and then trying to pencil whip the paperwork after the fact to include all manner of bribes and foreign government corruption. This seems to be leading to trophies sitting around, in some cases for years, and in a few instances hunters never getting them at all.

We were told by someone involved in the process that the US was going to stop allowing Argali imports at some point because of the corruption and zero monitoring and enforcement of CITES guidelines by various foreign countries involved. They have no way to ensure the animals are legally taken in compliance with CITES etc. Not sure where that is at.

If I was going to embark on a foreign hunt, knowing what I do now, I would insist on having copies of my hunting permit and paperwork provided before the hunt, and I sure as shit wouldn't leave the country without my trophies, overseeing the export permit and shipping myself. Once you are down the road, some of these problems are really expensive, if not impossible to solve.

I am sure I don't have some of this right as it was a confusing mess to try to short through. Please offer corrections or additions if someone here knows more.

If anyone has had a similar experience or has been screwed over by shady guides or business operators over there, feel free to shoot me a PM as I have more I can share.

Good luck.

no very hard to type the name of your outfitter and find out what he did in the past in his own province where he guided for stone sheep and elk ... while sometimes people are doing mystakes when it is repeated it is no more an excuse and of course a never good reason to encourage despite being on tv shows ...

 

[S-3 ranch]

It seems that WalterH is fairly spot on. I have hunted variety of species in various country's and it seems the cities process is being toyed with not only from the country that is exporting but the country that is importing as well.

Last time I went to Kyrgyzstan in 2019 we were able to get cities permits and bring our ibex home with us. Upon arrival into the US we declared them. The usfw officer told us that since our forms were in Russian that he would not accept then. But decided to just let us walk with them anyway. I am headed back in 2 weeks. Hopefully we can have papar work again. And this time the agent in the US side will be able to process it correctly. From my understanding the usa also sets numbers for how many of a cities animal can be imported. One of our friends from New Zealand was on the trip and did not have to make prior arrangements to import an argali vs one member of our group in the USA waited almost a year to import his due to USA side holding him up.

I have waited for almost 2 years on cities permits for Barbary sheep from mexico. Again it seems to be totally political. The USA claimed that Mexico was not fulfilling the cities agreements correctly and forced a stop to Mexican imports. But on the same side, the outfitter should have had permits arranged ahead of time. So it's very difficult to point fingers.

My suggestion is try to find an exporter beforehand in the event that things go south with your outfitter. Most of the "outfitters" in mid Asia are just hunt brokers and have nothing to do with anything other than doubling the hunt price to explain in English how the hunt will be. The true outfitter is the one that is arranging the hunt and getting the paperwork. International hunting in the form that we know it will not be around forever. My suggestion is to go and enjoy as much as possible. Will things go as planned and will you get everything back in perfect condition or timely manner, probably not. But one day you'll be old and all you'll have is memories of the good times.

I’m seeing this problem a lot with people hunting Africa, Fed’s holding on to stuff and then import agencies charging huge storage fees
sum running up in the thousands of dollars extra over contract cost
lots Of people’s opinions are just forgetting about import and making a photo album
mexico & Canada trophies are going to be really hard to get cites permits for
sheep hunt for $30-80k and a photo album in the end

 

[medvedyt]

I’m seeing this problem a lot with people hunting Africa, Fed’s holding on to stuff and then import agencies charging huge storage fees
sum running up in the thousands of dollars
lots Of people’s opinions are just forgetting about import and making a photo album
mexico & Canada trophies are going to be really hard to get cites permits for

look up for cites polar bears coming from our country they cant go to usa and since a while now.

 

[S-3 ranch]

look up for cites polar bears coming from our country they cant go to usa and since a while now.

Yeah Doc May a hunter near me, just got a polar bear and big horn sheep in Canada and both are still in lockdown in Canada, the bear he is having a life size replica done, the ram he has a import agent trying to get the ram back .
its borderline legal ram ( see picture)
mexico when coming back the sheep permit has to travel to Brownsville from Acuna to have a cites origen 350 miles distance
mexico PIA imports




doc’ may alberta ram

 

[GreyGhostHunter]

US Fish & Wildlife make up their own rules and are the cause of a lot of heart ache to hunters. Banning imports of polar bears, lions, mountain lions(Mx), etc……and not much support or rationale on why.

There does seem like there is a common theme with Asian Mountain Outfitters and hunter issues in Asia.

 

[aussiehunter]

Hey Buzzy, you mind pm’ing your number? I just signed up here and won’t allow me to pm you. I’m leaving in Two days to hunt w/Asif. I’d love your input.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hope you are the only hunter in camp with Asif so you get looked after. Best of luck

 

[WalterH]

US Fish & Wildlife make up their own rules and are the cause of a lot of heart ache to hunters. Banning imports of polar bears, lions, mountain lions(Mx), etc……and not much support or rationale on why.

There does seem like there is a common theme with Asian Mountain Outfitters and hunter issues in Asia.

Got this via email a week or two ago in the SCI newsletter,

 

[alaska_bou]

Hope you are the only hunter in camp with Asif so you get looked after. Best of luck

I like Asif, but you speak the truth with this comment. He tends to prioritize his wealthier clients, often at the expense of others he has booked. I have witnessed this first-hand in Azerbaijan with him.

If you hunt ibex in Kyrgyzstan, you can take your trophy home with you as checked luggage, but to do so you need a few days in Bishkek for the outfitter's staff to process all the paperwork including an export cites. You do not need to apply for an import cites through USFW for ibex.

With all of the factual information that has been shared about Asian Mountain Outfitters, I think anyone would have to be a fool to book with them in the future. Bryan is a crook.

 

[TWHrunner]

Yeah Doc May a hunter near me, just got a polar bear and big horn sheep in Canada and both are still in lockdown in Canada, the bear he is having a life size replica done, the ram he has a import agent trying to get the ram back .
its borderline legal ram ( see picture)
mexico when coming back the sheep permit has to travel to Brownsville from Acuna to have a cites origen 350 miles distance
mexico PIA imports




doc’ may alberta ram View attachment 593309View attachment 593310

 

[TWHrunner]

Did this ram get sealed?

 

[aussiehunter]

I like Asif, but you speak the truth with this comment. He tends to prioritize his wealthier clients, often at the expense of others he has booked. I have witnessed this first-hand in Azerbaijan with him.

If you hunt ibex in Kyrgyzstan, you can take your trophy home with you as checked luggage, but to do so you need a few days in Bishkek for the outfitter's staff to process all the paperwork including an export cites. You do not need to apply for an import cites through USFW for ibex.

With all of the factual information that has been shared about Asian Mountain Outfitters, I think anyone would have to be a fool to book with them in the future. Bryan is a crook.

Never hunted with him due to him blocking me after he brought on politics into the conversation and did not like my view of them.

He has done that to lot of hunters i know especially for Tur, they pay for premium areas an he is meant to be in camp with them but get peanuts in return, when his wealthier clients get a royal treatment.

That makes it easier that you do not need an import permit through USFW, in australia we need one and makes it challenging as the export permit can not be attained prior to the hunt so we have to get it shipped.

Having heard horror stories from hunters who went to Kyrg with AMO i decided to book Kazakhstan or ibex in 2024 and Maral few years after.

 

[Doc Holliday]

@buzzy Any update on getting your trophies back?
@SagehunterD How did your hunt go? What outfitter did you go with and would you recommend?
@Cynoscion Any update on getting your trophy back?
@mitschkeb Who was your outfitter?
@NotJose How did your hunt with Asif go? How did he treat you?

 

[Cynoscion]

Nothing on my trophy. It stinks but I’ve already decided I will never see it again. The sad reality of hunting overseas is that it’s always a possibility. I’ve done it a lot and always been very fortunate to get my trophies back. It was bound to happen eventually.

 

[buzzy]

@buzzy Any update on getting your trophies back?
@SagehunterD How did your hunt go? What outfitter did you go with and would you recommend?
@Cynoscion Any update on getting your trophy back?
@mitschkeb Who was your outfitter?
@NotJose How did your hunt with Asif go? How did he treat you?

It took about 5 months but I got my trophy. And my outfitter did not gouge me on fees to get here, he was very reasonable on the price to get it ready and on a plane to the states.

 

[Doc Holliday]

It took about 5 months but I got my trophy. And my outfitter did not gouge me on fees to get here, he was very reasonable on the price to get it ready and on a plane to the states.

PM sent

 

[Doc Holliday]

Nothing on my trophy. It stinks but I’ve already decided I will never see it again. The sad reality of hunting overseas is that it’s always a possibility. I’ve done it a lot and always been very fortunate to get my trophies back. It was bound to happen eventually.

Damn. Sorry to hear that. What should I be asking for when booking the hunt, in terms of assurances on getting a trophy back? Or is it not on the outfitter because they will blame it on someone else down the line? Is it a total crapshoot?