KUIU Super Down vs. Western Mountaineering Badger, 15-degree bags

[Ryan Avery]

"That certainly played into the warmth of the tent, as the wind comes up underneath the fly, and creates a draft in the tent that wouldn’t normally be there."


"Although, to be clear there were no drafts that I could feel coming into the bag."


"Although the other night I didn’t noticed any drafts at all without using the collar, having it all buttoned down definitely conserves heat better."

Seems interesting how he mentioned multiple times he wasn't feeling a draft in the bag, but inside the tent, because that SG Skyscraper is one of the few, if only, 4 season tents that has an outer fly that doesn't come all the way down to the ground. 30mph winds + elevated fly= a drafty tent. No one is disputing that sealing up the draft collar will help with heat retention, but he made a point to mention several times that he felt no drafts inside the bag, his head, torso, and feet were fine, only his thighs were cold. He's a cold sleeper as well. We'll have to wait til next week at least for the next round of tests, Robby is gonna be in SLC instructing the flat bill masses on how to kill big deer.

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Are they still rocking mullets in Utard city?

 

[sneaky]

Are they still rocking mullets in Utard city?

Absolutely. They're making a strong push to come back. Oh wait, I don't think they ever left Utah lol

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[robby denning]

"That certainly played into the warmth of the tent, as the wind comes up underneath the fly, and creates a draft in the tent that wouldn’t normally be there."


"Although, to be clear there were no drafts that I could feel coming into the bag."


"Although the other night I didn’t noticed any drafts at all without using the collar, having it all buttoned down definitely conserves heat better."

Seems interesting how he mentioned multiple times he wasn't feeling a draft in the bag, but inside the tent, because that SG Skyscraper is one of the few, if only, 4 season tents that has an outer fly that doesn't come all the way down to the ground. 30mph winds + elevated fly= a drafty tent. No one is disputing that sealing up the draft collar will help with heat retention, but he made a point to mention several times that he felt no drafts inside the bag, his head, torso, and feet were fine, only his thighs were cold. He's a cold sleeper as well. We'll have to wait til next week at least for the next round of tests, Robby is gonna be in SLC instructing the flat bill masses on how to kill big deer.

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Yeah sorry for the confusion. I was not getting drafts down the bag without the draft collar snapped up that first night, however I noticed the second night snapping it up definitely helped heat retention in the bag. I should’ve known that,.

The drafts I mention the first night in the tent, weren’t even hardly noticeable, I just knew with a 30 mile an hour wind out there in a fly that doesn’t go all the way to the ground that there is heat escaping the tent that normally would not escape. That’s what I was trying to say.

I must have this flat bill on too tight.


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[robby denning]

I am interested to see how the badger does when wet. The SG did awesomely I would bet the Kuiu does fine. But the badger is the only one with untreated down. Guess we will see if treaded down is overrated or not. Good stuff ROBO.

I’ll be turning the hose on these at some point.

Now about all this pubic hair in the bag you sent...


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[Ryan Avery]

I’ll be turning the hose on these at some point.

Now about all this pubic hair in the bag you sent...


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Prolly back hair....

 

[sneaky]

Yeah sorry for the confusion. I was not getting drafts down the bag without the draft collar snapped up that first night, however I noticed the second night snapping it up definitely helped heat retention in the bag. I should’ve known that,.

The drafts I mention the first night in the tent, weren’t even hardly noticeable, I just knew with a 30 mile an hour wind out there in a fly that doesn’t go all the way to the ground that there is heat escaping the tent that normally would not escape. That’s what I was trying to say.

I must have this flat bill on too tight.


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You're practicing for the Expo

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[Murtfree]

I've had my KUIU 15*F Superdown bag since they came out in 2014...retirement gift from co-workers! It has performed very well for me. I've slept in it down to around 0*F, with a lot of layers on including Attack pants and Superdown zip-off pants. This was on top of an R3.4 Thermarest pad and did OK.

I have over 200 nights in the bag todate and it is holding up well. I really like how quick it dried when I woke up in a puddle of water once on a moose hunt due to a leaky water jug. The only caution I'd offer is if you are an XL on top it is snug around the chest in the regular length bag. I don't mind that but some might be claustrophobic in it.

Good information! I’ve been thinking I was going to invest in a WM Antelope until I talked with the Kuiu people at the PA Outdoors show this weekend. But I didn’t pull the trigger on one because I felt I needed to do more research. Tightness/claustrophobia seemed to be about the only complaint I saw about the Kuiu bags. But when I just compared the Kuiu 0* bag to the Antelope, according to girth measurements, the Kuiu is actually larger than the Antelope. I’ve never owned a full mummy bag and I am somewhat concerned about how I will sleep in one. Maybe going to the long is an option. Your comment regarding the quick dry time is making me think the Quix-Down may be more important than the Gore Tex shell in a bag. Following this thread closely...

 

[unclericco]

Thanks for this review, I have a Badger and I didn’t know about the continuous baffles either until after I was not warm sleeping in it on a fishing trip and asked WM about them. Looking forward to the results on these two!

 

[robby denning]

After four nights in a hotel room I was looking forward to sleeping in my own bed, but it looks like tonight‘s temps are close enough to the rating of the bag that I should sleep in it.

So it’s the KUIU again tonight as I wanna try to get it to its 15-degree rating. (So far it’s only been to 19)

Like last time, I’ll have on my base layers, my First Lite Brooks sweater, and my Obsidian pants, and wool socks. I always wear a light glove, too.


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[fwafwow]

After four nights in a hotel room I was looking forward to sleeping in my own bed, but it looks like tonight‘s temps are close enough to the rating of the bag that I should sleep in it.

So it’s the KUIU again tonight as I wanna try to get it to its 15-degree rating. (So far it’s only been to 19)

Like last time, I’ll have on my base layers, my First Lite Brooks sweater, and my Obsidian pants, and wool socks. I always wear a light glove, too.


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Good luck!


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[robby denning]

Went to bed at 12:30 to 24 degree temps and calm winds.

Before I get to the KUIU bag performance, I noticed that as I got zipped into mummy mode, and worked the zipper the last few inches from inside the bag, the zipper tab glows! Nice feature that helps you find the tab and unzip from inside (and 6 hours later, it was still glowing).

So back to temperature rating performance...,

With the pillow (full size/small) outside of the bag, I snapped both snaps on the draft collar (left side of bag) and pulled in the draw string (right side of bag) so everything was close to my face. KUIU did well as you can bring bag in as tight or loose as you want. I had the bag almost touching my cheeks, but still could breathe out of the bag so I didn't condense too much.

Slept hard for most of night. The last hour, I felt a little chill set in, again on my thighs. I was sleeping on my back and the bag was touching my thighs. I rolled onto my side, reached through the draft collar so I could grab the pillow (though the bag) and puff it up a bit as my head/neck were now higher.

This put a little dead airspace between my thighs and the bag. That was all it took to mostly get rid of the chill. I'm guessing that was in the last hour or so of sleep. Alarm went off at 6:30 and by golly, I made it to 16 degrees, as close as I've got it to the rating.

So, for a cold sleeper like me who wears clothes to bed, I can make the rating. If you're a warm sleeper, I'm confident to offer that you'll probably be able to exceed the temp rating. (if anyone has time to look up the KUIU rating and clarify if I'm at a comfort rating at 15 degrees, or that "other" rating, (drawing a blank and I gotta get to work), that would help. Also, this test was done an an air mattress, you might get a little lower on a foam pad.

So that wraps it up for now on the KUIU at this point in the review (the soak test is coming later). With below zero temps the next few nights, I'll have to wait on the Western Mountaineering temp test.

Points on the KUIU:

1) If you use the bag correctly, it seems to be rated accurately, the only variable being if you're a cold sleeper and need more than base layers, or a hot sleeper like Ryan (that's a function of massive amounts of body hair IMO)

2) The mummy mode left a guy my size (5'9" and 180lbs) room to move and no claustrophobic feeling, but I've slept in mummy bags for years keep in mind--you might have to train yourself if you haven't.

3) Although my thighs got chilled, my feet never did, so the footbox is working as it should.

4) Zipping into mummy mode showed that the cut of the hood is very functional, and the draw string/draft collar work very well.

5) It's taken me about three nights to learn how to use the zipper without snagging it. It has a baffle above the zipper that easily gets snagged, but it also does its job keeping the zipper draft free. My advice if you go with this bag is to learn how to zip it shut/open with the tab in your thumb/index finger, and your middle finger (which will above the thumb/index finger) lifting the baffle ahead of the zipper.

Looks like it'll be next weekend before we have overnight lows near the 15 degree mark, so I'll have to wait till then to test the WM bag. In the meantime, I'm gonna learn how to move the insulation from bottom to top like @sndmn11 suggested above. I tried it once and I couldn't get it to move, but I was in the cramped tent, so I need to try again when I can spread the bag out.

Thanks


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[tdot]

I've never had success with "pushing" down around. Shaking and swearing seems to work best for me.

Makes for entertaining conversations in the morning when anyone who heard is trying to figure out what was happening the night before.

 

[robby denning]

I've never had success with "pushing" down around. Shaking and swearing seems to work best for me.

Makes for entertaining conversations in the morning when anyone who heard is trying to figure out what was happening the night before.

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[zacattack]

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thanks for the write up, excited to hear how the WM does. That glow in the dark zipper is genius, I was going to tie some reflective paracord on mine but now I’m thinking of finding a glow in the dark piece

 

[robby denning]

First night in a week we haven’t been forecast below zero or close to.

So I’m gonna do it. Let’s see how the Western Mountaineering Badger (WM) at 2lbs 6oz (medium) stacks up against the previously tested 1lb 15oz KUIU (regular).

Remember that first night that the WM didn’t do any better than the KUIU, but tonight, I did follow @sndmn11 advice and moved the down from the bottom to the top of the bag. This feature is possible due to the continuous baffles shown in the image below.

Wasn’t having much luck pushing it with my hands per the instructions, so I just shook the bag with the front side hanging below the backside and it moved fairly easily, as in just a minute or two.

If you look close at the lower pic, you can see the top side is on the left, the bottom is on the right. See the difference in loft between the left (top) and the bottom (right)? In theory, this might solve the cold thigh problem as I get close to rating.

See you in the morning.


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[robby denning]

I made it through the night in the WM.

I'll have a report asap for you guys.

 

[robby denning]

OK, this is what happened.

I went to bed about 10:30 and slept well till about 5 when I started to get chilled. However it wasn’t just around my thighs like the other nights in the KUIU, but generally from my torso down. Not freezing, just a slight chill—enough to keep me from falling back asleep. I fought it for a while but finally realized it wasn’t going to get any better. So I pulled out my phone and checked the weather.

The exact temp where I ended the KUIU bag test in the post above, except I was able to keep going in the fetal position in the KUIU. So the edge went to the KUIU, albeit a very slight edge.

So this is mostly a battle of features, weight, looks, and price so far.

On the WM Badger, a few points:

1) It is slightly roomier in the medium than the KUIU is in the regular. There is more room around my head and shoulders than in the KUIU.

2) The WM zipper is easier to operate than the KUIU—less of a learning curve.

3) The WM uses two Velcro closures to seal up the bag, one on the draft collar and one on the hood, both on the left side. They’re not too hard to operate but take a little practice. There is a draw string on the right side of the bag to pull the hood around the face.

4) The continuous baffles do allow you to move the down around, so the bag could be a little more versatile in wider temp ranges.

So at this point, which one would I pick?

Temp performance: Slight edge to KUIU, although the WM seems to insulate my body more evenly

Price: I see KUIU has pulled their 15-degree bag from their site since I started this review, so I can only see the 30 degree and the 0 degree. I can only guess that the 15 would land in the $600 range, the same as the WM Badger from what I can find. Tie

Weight: KUIU wins by 7 ozs (1lb 15 oz vs. 2lb 6 oz)

Features: WM for the zipper, KUIU for the draft collar and hood

Looks: KUIU all the way

So if they were gonna take one of the bags away today, I’d keep the KUIU.

Still to test is bulk (packed size) and the soak test. I’ll get to it.

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[zacattack]

Great write up. Glad to see the wm performed well. Why is it so much heavier?

 

[sneaky]

Great write up. Glad to see the wm performed well. Why is it so much heavier?

It uses a heavier denier fabric than the Kuiu. 12d vs 20d.

20.8oz down fill in Kuiu,
23oz in WM.

62/57/43 on Kuiu internal dimensions
65/56/39 on the WM in regular

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[sneaky]

Here you go @robby denning. Dragged this up from the web

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