Klamath River Dam Removal

[BuckSmasher]

Recently came across articles and some youtube videos discussing the ongoing dam removal's on the Klamath River in Oregon and California. The goal is to increase salmon runs in the river.

I live in Idaho and the removal of the Snake River dam's is being discussed. So we may see this up here in a few years.

The controversy surrounding it doesn't seem to fit the typical 'left vs right' framework of most public discourse that permeates pretty much everything now. For example, I saw a group of protesters AGAINST dam removal carrying signs that say, "clean water is a human right". Whatever that means. Also, the arguments used against dam removal in the youtube videos I saw were that it was poisoning the water and killing wildlife. The advocates FOR dam removal were aguing the economics of maintaining ageing dams and that their planned lifespan was expiring, so why not remove them and restore salmon runs also? Who wants to stand in the way of progress?

I am all for dam removal in the northwest, if it will increase salmon runs, and IF electric generating capacity is replaced. What bothers me is that folks want to remove hydro, yet against all forms of electric generation. Also, salmon restoration is complicated. I am interested to see how this plays out in the next decade or so.

What are y'alls thoughts?

 

[Aeroflot81]

Salmon runs are being decimated in Alaska as well, a place with no dams. Why do we think this would accomplish the goal of bringing salmon back?

I’m very concerned about irrigation and energy production if dams are removed

 

[Pony Soldier]

I remember the snake before the dams. The salmon runs weren't anything special. I think you are better off limiting the wholesale slaughter offshore. You can't afford the replacement electricity.

Maybe you just need to shut off the electricity from those dams for 60 days and see if everyone can think a little better.

 

[NCTrees]

Complicated topic and agree it’s not traditional left v. right but it sure could be framed as traditional rural values (ranching/ farming etc) vs preservationist approach. There is also a social equity issue going on in terms of tribal concerns, I’m not touching that one other than to note it’s there. Decision to remove the dams was probably a no brainer for PPL given the FERC relicensing requirements so perhaps it’s a simple as that. I suspect what is really frustrating to most people concerned with the removals is the lack of clarity on impacts and perhaps a downright lack of precision when the estimates were produced and rolled out to the public. Underestimation of sediment- turned out it was enough to kill crawdads in the river and leave deer to get stuck and die in the mud. Heavy metals, water board still contends it’s not an issue, but the county had to issue an emergency to stay out of and not drink the water due elevated toxicity. It’s gotta hurt riverside residents dependent upon the previous water levels to support a decent water table for their wells, that perhaps is not there now due to lower summer flow and / or saturated with toxic metals. Property values for houses around the lakes I’m sure have taken a massive hit, feels like a taking to me. Not to mention future flooding that was previously controlled by the dams.

Seeing it in person, it looks like enough sediment was blown into in the river to prevent spawning in the mainstream next few years at least, that’ll have adverse effects on future returns for some time to come. I also suspect the main stem is going to be a tepid, algae ridden stink pool in the summers where it had been supporting relatively cool high summer flows from the dams, a few notable summer kills aside. I’m guessing the river is functionally ruined for at least the remainder of my life, but am not too proud to admit I was overly pessimistic if it turns out I’m hammering salmon and steelhead on the upper Klamath in the next few years. We will see I guess.

 

[Macintosh]

The kennebec in Me and the elwha in Wa (may have spelled that one wrong) have both had major dams removed over the past decade or three. Anyone have first-hand experience with how those have gone?

Edited due to my geographical ineptitude

 

[amassi]

Salmon runs are being decimated in Alaska as well, a place with no dams. Why do we think this would accomplish the goal of bringing salmon back?

I’m very concerned about irrigation and energy production if dams are removed

Because the 4 previous klamath dams provided warm water devoid of oxygen that would killed salmon and create a system wide spread of bacterial infection.
So, not at all relevant to Alaska whose issues likely stem from overfishing and the “blob” of warm water that was persistent from 2013-2022.

Klamath fish have proven to be successful when given a chance


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[amassi]

The kennebec in Me and the elwha in Ca (may have spelled that one wrong) have both had major dams removed over the past decade or three. Anyone have first-hand experience with how those have gone?

Elwha is in Washington.
Is quite a different watershed then the Klamath or snake.
Much shorter
Elwha looks promising


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[Pacific_Fork]

Remove dams, nuclear energy. Easy peasy.

 

[Windigo]

The dams on the snake barely produce any power, they're mainly to facilitate barge traffic. Something that wouldn't be necessary if we still had a rail system.

Free the Snake!

 

[z987k]

Remove dams, nuclear energy. Easy peasy.

But the green's don't want the only practical, unlimited and carbon free energy there is.

 

[z987k]

Because the 4 previous klamath dams provided warm water devoid of oxygen that would killed salmon and create a system wide spread of bacterial infection.
So, not at all relevant to Alaska whose issues likely stem from overfishing and the “blob” of warm water that was persistent from 2013-2022.

Klamath fish have proven to be successful when given a chance


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If you think the bottom trawlers won't come rape the ocean the second there is 1 spare fish, you're mistaken.

Until those things are outlawed and ideally sunk, the salmon will never recover regardless of any other action that is taken.

 

[amassi]

If you think the bottom trawlers won't come rape the ocean the second there is 1 spare fish, you're mistaken.

Until those things are outlawed and ideally sunk, the salmon will never recover regardless of any other action that is taken.

You don’t borrow trawl for salmon off California, there is a trawl fishery for California halibut.
The commercial salmon fleet is highly regulated and quotad and dying. They mooch or troll single hooks and handline fish hooked in the mouth

They also stave off farm raised salmon which ah e their own series of issues and likely responsible for the decline of the fishery in BC and Alaska.


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[amassi]

Remove dams, nuclear energy. Easy peasy.

Amen
And desalinate the pacific for drinking and ag
Let the snow flow


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[z987k]

You don’t borrow trawl for salmon off California, there is a trawl fishery for California halibut.
The commercial salmon fleet is highly regulated and quotad and dying. They mooch or troll single hooks and handline fish hooked in the mouth

They also stave off farm raised salmon which ah e their own series of issues and likely responsible for the decline of the fishery in BC and Alaska.


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No they don't trawl for salmon. Mostly Pollock. But they kill more salmon trawling for pollock than sport fisherman catch.

 

[Koda_]

All the rivers Ive read about that had dams removed have all seen improvements in salmon population.

 

[amassi]

No they don't trawl for salmon. Mostly Pollock. But they kill more salmon trawling for pollock than sport fisherman catch.

Another falsehood
The ground fish fishery (rockfish, cod et el) off California is extremely regulated and bycatch is counted. The interaction of salmon and shelf dwelling cod is extremely limited based on depth restrictions of cod fishery and salmon habitat
Salmon near shore cod well offshore
The areas of concern off Monterey canyon down to moss landing where salmon routinely interact have shortened trawl seasons to account and have been closed because of interaction
All the info you could ever dream of is available with the pfmc.
But bycatch is counted in the high hundreds to low thousands and sport catch in The hundreds of thousands.
Regardless - all the possible fishing interactions pale in comparrison to the damage of water diversion and dams.
Other red herrings- Striped bass, climate change, racism, forest fires-have all been equally debunked.


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[Marble]

Definitely a complicated issue with each group believing what they want is right. The issues affecting salmon are what seem to be long-term problems.

Over fishing, a combination of sport and commercial, but mainly commercial.

Pollution from a lot of sources. Roads, run off, air, rain and erosion from logging operations.

Poor water quality. The Marijuana industry in California has sucked a tremendous amount of water out of the Mad, Eel, Trinity, Scott, Shasta and Klamath rivers. There have been years where annual tributaries run dry because of the amount of water being sucked out of them in the mountains. Low flows create warmer, shallow water where diseases are ready to latch onto the next victim. It also creates an environment where eggs and smells don't fair well.

Dams are part of the problem. We need the energy. Doesn't seem there has been an offset for the energy loss from the dam removal.

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[TaperPin]

Once upon a time I took a low level environmental economics class - this was the prof’s main area of study - he could easily pencil out what it took to build a dam, what was produced, and what the long term costs were once it was silted up or past it’s useful life. He would say it’s plain to see dams aren’t economically feasible if the builder also has to pay for all the costs involved in later removing he dam. I had never heard of a dam being removed before the Klamath dams - everything that has happened he predicted 40 years ago - it’s really interesting seeing it happen in real time.

When the dams were built those with the most political clout and money were the beneficiary’s - fish don’t vote, and many of the people catching the fish are in different counties or states so their vote doesn’t matter.

I don’t have a horse in his race, but these small and medium sized dams are all over the west and even if there aren’t salmon to save more are sure to bite the dust. It seems engineering in the good old days sometimes left a bit to be desired and involved a fair bit of guessing. Utility companies are notorious for doing what’s in their best interest - I’m sure tax payers will take it in the shorts to clean things up.

 

[amassi]

Definitely a complicated issue with each group believing what they want is right. The issues affecting salmon are what seem to be long-term problems.

Over fishing, a combination of sport and commercial, but mainly commercial.

Pollution from a lot of sources. Roads, run off, air, rain and erosion from logging operations.

Poor water quality. The Marijuana industry in California has sucked a tremendous amount of water out of the Mad, Eel, Trinity, Scott, Shasta and Klamath rivers. There have been years where annual tributaries run dry because of the amount of water being sucked out of them in the mountains. Low flows create warmer, shallow water where diseases are ready to latch onto the next victim. It also creates an environment where eggs and smells don't fair well.

Dams are part of the problem. We need the energy. Doesn't seem there has been an offset for the energy loss from the dam removal.

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That tremendous amount of water from pot grows is maybe .1% of the water used by agriculture in the San Joaquin valley to grow export crops. Those rivers are being sucked dry but by a much different source than you suggest
How much energy were the Klamath dams providing?


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[Danny Hoey]

I remember the snake before the dams. The salmon runs weren't anything special. I think you are better off limiting the wholesale slaughter offshore. You can't afford the replacement electricity.

Maybe you just need to shut off the electricity from those dams for 60 days and see if everyone can think a little better.

Never would have guessed there was a 80 year old cruising around on rokslide.