- Banned
- #1
GKPrice
Banned
I read this forum as much or more than the others on Rokslide (as would be evidenced by participitation I guess) but recently it dawned on me that there is a stand out thread theme .... "which rifle ?" and the tirades begin ... - "Kimbers are a pos" - "LAW's have too many problems for me to buy one" - and the list goes on and on .... I realize that this is a forum "a venue for others to share experiences with one another" but I have grown weary of this predisposition for a chance to tell the world how awful a product, in this case firearms (obviously) has become - I also understand that member numbers is what shows the world of forums which is the best one - I have watched this trend of telling how bad a company is grow exponentially to the point where I feel obliged to defend the companies which lately has made me an "enemy" of more than I befriend and I have realized that I can't change the tide of this trend so I'm up on my soapbox to say some things -
a custom riflemaker or gunsmith makes one rifle at a time, that's just what they do - to a lesser or greater degree they are artists and their finished product (rifle) are at least to them a work of art (or that smith might want to find another career) It's why they cost so much (easy to understand for most of us)
a limited production rifle maker contracts key components for his limited number of rifles brought to fruition - the ONLY way this company has any way of knowing what quality a barrel is going to be is to either shoot each one to his satisfaction or get a bunch of them in the hands of customers with a guarantee that he will make corrections if that gun fails to "perform" - Stock - Bedding - Tigger pull and quality - finish - these are things that can be controlled at the facility that ships the finished product - we will all agree that any given rifle might have imperfect bedding (which can be corrected), an imperfect stock (another can take it's place pretty easily in most cases), this list goes on UNTIL we get to the "BARREL", barrels can only be vetted by shooting them, a strictly time limited process to do while in the maker's possession - So the rifle gets a less than optimal barrel and winds up in the hands of it's new owner who is either a factory ammo shooter, a limited experience handloader or a "this ain't my first rodeo" handloader/shooter - When the rifle is a true "custom" it is rightful IMO to ask for loads to be worked up and all data provided with the gun, this raised the cost of the rifle - Here is where guys like Melvin Forbes come onto the stage, he uses DOUGLAS barrels period and has become one of, if not THE, premier builder in operation today, he'll build a rifle that will shoot to "his" requirements or not leave the factory and he'll tell you what shoots good "for him" when he sends you the rifle but is this a true "custom" rifle ? I mean no insult when I say no, it's not, Forbes has found a venue that appeals to many hunters and he has found what works, ask him if he'll put a PacNor barrel on one of his rifles and listen to what he'll tell you - I've been to PacNor barrel before, it was back when Chris Deichter ran it, there was a 55 gal drum of "barrels" in a corner nearly full, I happened to be there with John Noveske, he pulled a .30 tube from the "cull barrels trash can" and took it home and built a 1/2" .308 for himself with it (he never would have done that for a customer's gun) - He explained that it's all in how much time you want to put into it and skill of the smith, this barrel was culled because it had a slight curve in it's length imperceptible to the eye, John simply installed it so the curve was true to the action with the upward curve centerd exactly at the bottom center of that action, and the rifle "shot" - Sorry for the story but it has a point: how many production rifle companies a) use one maker's barrels only, and is that barrel maker giving the maker it's good barrels ? b) can or will that maker take the time to install a known less than perfect barrel the way it won't matter (how many even understand it ??, or care ?) Kimber doesn't have that sort of time or talent I dare to say, if they did do you think you could still buy a Montana for $1100-$1200 ? "TIME" costs, "PERFECTION" costs, all of this in a package COSTS ( again using Kimber, there's an allowance for error in the manufacture of anything) ..... each production company has their own style and I'm sure that in their mind's eye, an idea to bring each of these things into a "rifle" that will perform to a level acceptable to the general shooter/hunter - 3 shots into 1" moa at 100 yards with FACTORY ammo, acceptable ergonomics, smooth and unfaltering performance ie: round feeding & ejection, all of it - I think my point is obvious so I'll not bore you all any longer
BUT I'll say this, take LAW rifles, I met the guys whose brainchild LAW is/was and it was more than obvious to me that they truly cared, no they are passionate about the rifles they are going to produce - if you could talk one of them into building a rifle personally there's no doubt in my mind it would be as close to perfect as I am able to appreciate (but you surely would not get it for the price a Professional or another model goes for) - Same goes for Kimber or any other brand that you can think of but using Kimber as an example I would bet that AT LEAST 39 out of 40 (probably more like 99 out of 100 actually) Montana owners are ecstatic about their lightweight rifle (maybe once they take the time to learn the nuances of shooting a very lightweight rifle that is)
but as 21st century Americans too many of us just "expect" to not be bothered with these things, just give us our "perfection" and do it cheap ! well, think about how "cheap" do we all work for ?
a custom riflemaker or gunsmith makes one rifle at a time, that's just what they do - to a lesser or greater degree they are artists and their finished product (rifle) are at least to them a work of art (or that smith might want to find another career) It's why they cost so much (easy to understand for most of us)
a limited production rifle maker contracts key components for his limited number of rifles brought to fruition - the ONLY way this company has any way of knowing what quality a barrel is going to be is to either shoot each one to his satisfaction or get a bunch of them in the hands of customers with a guarantee that he will make corrections if that gun fails to "perform" - Stock - Bedding - Tigger pull and quality - finish - these are things that can be controlled at the facility that ships the finished product - we will all agree that any given rifle might have imperfect bedding (which can be corrected), an imperfect stock (another can take it's place pretty easily in most cases), this list goes on UNTIL we get to the "BARREL", barrels can only be vetted by shooting them, a strictly time limited process to do while in the maker's possession - So the rifle gets a less than optimal barrel and winds up in the hands of it's new owner who is either a factory ammo shooter, a limited experience handloader or a "this ain't my first rodeo" handloader/shooter - When the rifle is a true "custom" it is rightful IMO to ask for loads to be worked up and all data provided with the gun, this raised the cost of the rifle - Here is where guys like Melvin Forbes come onto the stage, he uses DOUGLAS barrels period and has become one of, if not THE, premier builder in operation today, he'll build a rifle that will shoot to "his" requirements or not leave the factory and he'll tell you what shoots good "for him" when he sends you the rifle but is this a true "custom" rifle ? I mean no insult when I say no, it's not, Forbes has found a venue that appeals to many hunters and he has found what works, ask him if he'll put a PacNor barrel on one of his rifles and listen to what he'll tell you - I've been to PacNor barrel before, it was back when Chris Deichter ran it, there was a 55 gal drum of "barrels" in a corner nearly full, I happened to be there with John Noveske, he pulled a .30 tube from the "cull barrels trash can" and took it home and built a 1/2" .308 for himself with it (he never would have done that for a customer's gun) - He explained that it's all in how much time you want to put into it and skill of the smith, this barrel was culled because it had a slight curve in it's length imperceptible to the eye, John simply installed it so the curve was true to the action with the upward curve centerd exactly at the bottom center of that action, and the rifle "shot" - Sorry for the story but it has a point: how many production rifle companies a) use one maker's barrels only, and is that barrel maker giving the maker it's good barrels ? b) can or will that maker take the time to install a known less than perfect barrel the way it won't matter (how many even understand it ??, or care ?) Kimber doesn't have that sort of time or talent I dare to say, if they did do you think you could still buy a Montana for $1100-$1200 ? "TIME" costs, "PERFECTION" costs, all of this in a package COSTS ( again using Kimber, there's an allowance for error in the manufacture of anything) ..... each production company has their own style and I'm sure that in their mind's eye, an idea to bring each of these things into a "rifle" that will perform to a level acceptable to the general shooter/hunter - 3 shots into 1" moa at 100 yards with FACTORY ammo, acceptable ergonomics, smooth and unfaltering performance ie: round feeding & ejection, all of it - I think my point is obvious so I'll not bore you all any longer
BUT I'll say this, take LAW rifles, I met the guys whose brainchild LAW is/was and it was more than obvious to me that they truly cared, no they are passionate about the rifles they are going to produce - if you could talk one of them into building a rifle personally there's no doubt in my mind it would be as close to perfect as I am able to appreciate (but you surely would not get it for the price a Professional or another model goes for) - Same goes for Kimber or any other brand that you can think of but using Kimber as an example I would bet that AT LEAST 39 out of 40 (probably more like 99 out of 100 actually) Montana owners are ecstatic about their lightweight rifle (maybe once they take the time to learn the nuances of shooting a very lightweight rifle that is)
but as 21st century Americans too many of us just "expect" to not be bothered with these things, just give us our "perfection" and do it cheap ! well, think about how "cheap" do we all work for ?
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