KIFARU TUT PYRAMID - How bad ass is it?

[mrbillbrown]

Would it be possible to have a second zippered door put into the Tut? The models I've seen with dual doors make access for 2 or access to wood pile or gear very handy.


molon labe

 

[DaveC]

I've said that many, many times in the last couple of years.

Again, I'll answer any questions you guys have on the fabric.

Thanks Aron. With the extra height it should be great for two.

If it stretches less and is more durable than the 30D, ~3000 HH silnylon which is the standard, how does it do that? Heavier fabric, thicker/different coating, something else? I appreciate it.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Aron,

Thanks for all the info.

 

[brewer427]

I'm going to be placing an order for this today. Lighter then the sawtooth and less of a foot print to try and find a flat spot to pitch then the sawtooth and I like the layout more then my megatarp. Looking forward to trying this.

Aron I imagine the stove pipe length is the same as a sawtooth, is that correct?

 

[COlineman78]

If it stretches less and is more durable than the 30D, ~3000 HH silnylon which is the standard, how does it do that? Heavier fabric, thicker/different coating, something else? I appreciate it.

Unicorn tears...

 

[Aron Snyder]

I'm at an archery tournament right now, but I will reply when back in front of my computer.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[TacticoolMike]

Glad to see more people shooting traditional. Love my Black Widow Longbow

 

[lintond]

Aron first just wanted to say I appreciate your to the point responses and willingness to share information. Some people just don't understand that quality comes at a price.

Is it feasible to pitch the shelter with a trekking pole combo? I think Luke may have done this with one of the tipis. Do you know the weight of just the shelter without the peg and pole?

I have a MegaTarp, but have been considering the Sawtooth as an "upgrade" that the GIF thinks I need.

 

[luke moffat]

Aron first just wanted to say I appreciate your to the point responses and willingness to share information. Some people just don't understand that quality comes at a price.

Is it feasible to pitch the shelter with a trekking pole combo? I think Luke may have done this with one of the tipis. Do you know the weight of just the shelter without the peg and pole?

I have a MegaTarp, but have been considering the Sawtooth as an "upgrade" that the GIF thinks I need.

While likely not recommended by the manufacturer, if you aren't expecting high winds I have set my Sawtooth up quite a few times with trekking poles and left the main pole at home. Not as wind worthy I imagine, but sure lightens things up when you don't need true bomber tent which is quite often for me. So I don't see a reason that this tent couldn't be pitched with extended trekking poles either as I get over 7' when I rig my trekking pole setup fully extended which likely would bring this shelter down close to 3 pounds I would imagine. Pretty cool tent, certainly and a great option...but I don't see giving it up in favor of my Sawtooth anytime soon. I guess I like blue cars

 

[AK Troutbum]

The HMG Ultamid 4 has over 17 Sq ft. larger foot print, is 3" shorter (75" tall) and weighs 21 oz. I'm kind of like Luke with his Sawtooth, I don't see me replacing my Ultamid anytime soon.

 

[Aron Snyder]

The easiest way to explain it, and the way it was explained to me by our supplier (it also makes the most sense), is comparing it to something like cotton t-shirts; some cotton shirts are really soft feeling, some are very rough. Some will stretch and shrink more than others and some will wear out much quicker while other cotton will last forever. This probably isn't the best way to explain it, as some cotton shirts are thicker than others, but it gets the point across in a simple way that makes some sense (to me anyway).

The same thing can be said for Silnylon, as it is not all created equal! The base materials used, as well as the manufacturing process, can vary a great deal and those variances are what will make the difference in waterproofness, abrasion resistance, UV resistance and tear strength.

In the case of what we use (Ultra High Tenacity, Mil-Spec, Silnylon), the differences are simple, the base material is of a higher quality (that's why is has a higher abrasion tear resistance) and the reason it stretches less is because it's woven tighter. When the weave is larger by even the slightest amount, the stretch in the material grows as well....exponentially as the length of material grows (meaning 10' will stretch a ton more than 10"). The quality of material also has a lot to do with the amount of stretch, as some will naturally stretch more than others. This is obviously an "all things being equal" type of thing when comparing what we use to standard American made 30D Silnylon and Asian sourced 30D Silnylon.

You can test this pretty easy, as it's not to difficult to find cheap Silnylon at even Walmart. If you stretch a cheap Chinese Silnylon (especially at a point it's sewn together) you will see the stitch holes get a lot bigger with a lot less pressure on the cheaper Silnylon. You can also cut a small slit in the side of the material and pull each side of the slit apart. When you do these things with higher end fabric against a cheaper fabric, you will quickly see a large difference in all aspects of testing. When we were looking at other potential fabrics/Silnylons, this is exactly what we found (issues with the stitch holes when under pressure and less tear resistance). The cheaper materials did relatively well as far as staying waterproof, but the stitch holes grew quickly and those holes from the stitching started to transfer to the edge of the material. After using the tipi several times in high wind with the prototype material, the stitching points eventually failed (they failed at half the weight when tested in our meat baggies) and all my hopes of cheaper fabric started failing as well

So after a few months of testing cheaper priced material to help keep our users and potential users happy, I pulled the plug on a new tipi material until we found something better that would at least equal what we have now.

This in now way means other types of material won't work for people, but it does mean ALL of the blame would be placed on me if the new material ended up with Kifaru having a higher warranty percentage and the blame would also be places on me by our long times customers that have grown to appreciate what we currently offer............ so I'm a chicken I guess, as one of the tipis I was testing with an Asian sourced fabric, blew down on me when we were shed hunting. This test was done in very high winds, but it was an area that I've camped many nights in tipis made of out current fabric.

Anyway, the long and short of it was this; a cheaper material would probably be at 75-80% of what our current material offers, but the 20-25% scared the shit out of me! I also knew I would get hung in the court yard and stoned to death by long time Kifaru users, so taking a beating on our price point was by far worth going through all the outer potential outcomes.

So believe me when I say I would prefer to not hear "your gear is more expensive than brand X", but I can't swap materials until I know it at least meets our current materials standards......Patrick will also kill me if I screw this up!

Hopefully this made some sense and cleared a few things up, but if not, feel free to ask more questions and I'll do my best to answer them.


Thanks everyone!

Thanks Aron. With the extra height it should be great for two.

If it stretches less and is more durable than the 30D, ~3000 HH silnylon which is the standard, how does it do that? Heavier fabric, thicker/different coating, something else? I appreciate it.

 

[Aron Snyder]

They make a great product for sure! I think that weight is without a center pole if I'm not mistaken, but the Cuben Fiber is crazy light weight.

The HMG Ultamid 4 has over 17 Sq ft. larger foot print, is 3" shorter (75" tall) and weighs 21 oz. I'm kind of like Luke with his Sawtooth, I don't see me replacing my Ultamid anytime soon.

 

[AK Troutbum]

They make a great product for sure! I think that weight is without a center pole if I'm not mistaken, but the Cuben Fiber is crazy light weight.

Yeah, that's just for the fabric, no pole or stakes included. Just out of curiosity Aron, do you know what the material alone weighs?

 

[orionsbrother]

The easiest way to explain it, and the way it was explained to me by our supplier (it also makes the most sense), is comparing it to something like cotton t-shirts; some cotton shirts are really soft feeling, some are very rough. Some will stretch and shrink more than others and some will wear out much quicker while other cotton will last forever. This probably isn't the best way to explain it, as some cotton shirts are thicker than others, but it gets the point across in a simple way that makes some sense (to me anyway).

The same thing can be said for Silnylon, as it is not all created equal! The base materials used, as well as the manufacturing process, can vary a great deal and those variances are what will make the difference in waterproofness, abrasion resistance, UV resistance and tear strength.

In the case of what we use (Ultra High Tenacity, Mil-Spec, Silnylon), the differences are simple, the base material is of a higher quality (that's why is has a higher abrasion tear resistance) and the reason it stretches less is because it's woven tighter. When the weave is larger by even the slightest amount, the stretch in the material grows as well....exponentially as the length of material grows (meaning 10' will stretch a ton more than 10"). The quality of material also has a lot to do with the amount of stretch, as some will naturally stretch more than others. This is obviously an "all things being equal" type of thing when comparing what we use to standard American made 30D Silnylon and Asian sourced 30D Silnylon.

You can test this pretty easy, as it's not to difficult to find cheap Silnylon at even Walmart. If you stretch a cheap Chinese Silnylon (especially at a point it's sewn together) you will see the stitch holes get a lot bigger with a lot less pressure on the cheaper Silnylon. You can also cut a small slit in the side of the material and pull each side of the slit apart. When you do these things with higher end fabric against a cheaper fabric, you will quickly see a large difference in all aspects of testing. When we were looking at other potential fabrics/Silnylons, this is exactly what we found (issues with the stitch holes when under pressure and less tear resistance). The cheaper materials did relatively well as far as staying waterproof, but the stitch holes grew quickly and those holes from the stitching started to transfer to the edge of the material. After using the tipi several times in high wind with the prototype material, the stitching points eventually failed (they failed at half the weight when tested in our meat baggies) and all my hopes of cheaper fabric started failing as well

So after a few months of testing cheaper priced material to help keep our users and potential users happy, I pulled the plug on a new tipi material until we found something better that would at least equal what we have now.

This in now way means other types of material won't work for people, but it does mean ALL of the blame would be placed on me if the new material ended up with Kifaru having a higher warranty percentage and the blame would also be places on me by our long times customers that have grown to appreciate what we currently offer............ so I'm a chicken I guess, as one of the tipis I was testing with an Asian sourced fabric, blew down on me when we were shed hunting. This test was done in very high winds, but it was an area that I've camped many nights in tipis made of out current fabric.

Anyway, the long and short of it was this; a cheaper material would probably be at 75-80% of what our current material offers, but the 20-25% scared the shit out of me! I also knew I would get hung in the court yard and stoned to death by long time Kifaru users, so taking a beating on our price point was by far worth going through all the outer potential outcomes.

So believe me when I say I would prefer to not hear "your gear is more expensive than brand X", but I can't swap materials until I know it at least meets our current materials standards......Patrick will also kill me if I screw this up!

Hopefully this made some sense and cleared a few things up, but if not, feel free to ask more questions and I'll do my best to answer them.


Thanks everyone!

Aron - FWIW, Kifaru will not be able to compete on price. There's too much cheap crap out there. Keep the focus on making high quality products and providing the best value possible by pricing as aggressively as you can. Your customer base will remain loyal and continue to grow.

If he's not there already, you'll eventually encounter some cookie cutter MBA consultant who'll advise that you expand into tiered production and additional channels to experience accelerated growth and maximize profits. Please punch that guy in the mouth.

I do not own a Kifaru shelter. Maybe some day. I have no interest in buying some Wal-Mart grade tent with a Kifaru patch. I doubt your customer base does either.

Don't sacrifice quality for the siren song of "entry level customers". Keep doing what you're doing. Seek efficiencies where you can.

 

[Aron Snyder]

If you weighed the Tut without the stove jack, it's right at 26 ounces.

Yeah, that's just for the fabric, no pole or stakes included. Just out of curiosity Aron, do you know what the material alone weighs?

 

[jb79]

I love the idea of the tut now that I have two little ones and a dog, I think the vertical walls would give that little extra room but I love my sawtooth so I am torn..... Guess I'll just have to save more money!!

I drank the kifaru coolaid a few years ago and it was tuff to drop that much coin on a pack and now I've been through 4 or 5 packs basically all the frames and 3 of the tarps, all things being equal the resale value of kifaru gear is awesome compared to others, so you try something out don't like it, sell it! Your out a few bucks plus shipping, damn near REI!

Keep on keeping on guys you build great products and the customer service is great, buy with confidence.


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[dreamingbig]

I will second orionsbrother's comments. Focus on quality and innovation. Too many cheap crappy options already.


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[Graves14]

Could you run single guy lines from the bottom loop to the stake then up through the tie out and back to a tensioner? Basically a triangle instead of separate lines on the tie outs and on the bottom? I'm aware you can stake it straight to the ground through the bottom loops but getting it up an inch or two off the ground makes the venting much easier.

 

[Aron Snyder]

Could you run single guy lines from the bottom loop to the stake then up through the tie out and back to a tensioner? Basically a triangle instead of separate lines on the tie outs and on the bottom? I'm aware you can stake it straight to the ground through the bottom loops but getting it up an inch or two off the ground makes the venting much easier.

Yep, it works pretty well that way; you can also run that guy line down and make it a vent too.

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[mtnrunner260]

Can you vent the top of the zipper open like on the sawtooth?