Kids rifle manifesto

[Flatland]

Hi M1 and Flatland

Here's a summary of parts/considerations/responses:

• Have done the 700 clone way (Krieger 7 twist, long throat, spendy) and the Tikka way (8 twist, factory chamber length) - both are excellent, Tikka costs a lot less
• Tikka started as a Compact for $659, then able to net $140 after selling the stock
• Cut the barrel from 20 to 17 inches, thread 5/8x24 w/shoulder (ADCO in Ohio)
• Chassis is LSS Gen 3 w/interface for carbine tube
• Adds are thumb shelf, MDT M-lok poly bipod (great for this set up!), MDT grip
• Cerakote air cure paint on metal
• Buttstock is Magpul CTR because it locks secure (no wiggle or rattle) and can add comb risers
• 11" LOP is very short - in my head might say that if a kid is less than 11" LOP, then too young/little to be shooting a centerfire
• Sportsmatch medium rings
• 6X super sniper is best of eye box/reticle/FOV + any brain adapts very easily, eliminates zoom in/out variable
• No bedding needed so chassis and barreled action are all interchangeable
• Total weight of set up is #8 - kids will shoot #8 better and more confident/less fear aversion than #6 while able to carry

Note that this all just something I arrived at after years of shooting with my kids/friends' kids. Going the Tikka factory route is a bit smarter. Only thing I'd change would be in favor of Tikka stainless barrel (if were offered).

Hope this helps!

Very helpful, thank you

 

[SloppyJ]

I had the same issue when I swapped to a LSS Gen2 chassis for my son. I went with the fixed XLR TR-2 and I'm glad I did. Found that we needed quite a bit of height on the cheek to get him lined up. I chopped it down to get it a bit shorter. There would be other designs that would work better here because the bolt throw limits how close you can get the buttstock.

The rings were also a challenge. I had to bond a pic rail on his tikka and go with high Warne Mountain Tech rings to get it to line up. It seemed more like mounting a scope on an AR at that point.

The last challenge was the grip. I ordered 3. An Ergo, some PRS type grip, and then a BCM Mod 0. We stuck with the BCM for his hand size as it was the thinnest.

From what I've expereinced, a chassis is BY FAR the easiest way to get a kid setup on a rifle under 10yo. I still have the Tikka compact stock but this 223 will live in this chassis for a while until his brother outgrows it.

 

[Gribley]

Anyone have a favorite source for 6x45 load data with modern bullets?

Hodgdon has a little but it seems dated.

 

[eric1115]

Anyone have a favorite source for 6x45 load data with modern bullets?

Hodgdon has a little but it seems dated.

Bunch of good info here...

M

Thread '6x45'

Feb 13, 2024

For some reason this cartridge has intrigued me lately. Those of you that have one or played with one could you post up your thoughts and experience with it? I'm most interested in performance with bullets on the heavier end (87-108gr). Actions,mags, barrels and barrel length, velocities attainable, usable powders and reloading data, etc. Any info would be appreciated. Oh... and bolt gun info would be preferred, I'm located in Canada so we aren't allowed those scary black rifles lol. Thanks!

• Moose83
• Replies: 252
• Forum: Firearms

 

[Cherokeeguide]

At least in the west, it’s rare that you have a kid off hunting by themselves.

It didn't seem all that rare when I was an 11 year old kid hunting the wide open spaces of the wide open west with a Marlin 336 in .30-30.

Before my dad signed me up for the Hunter's Safety Class, I had to prove I was ready to take it, and not just to my dad, but every adult in our camps. My dad would say, "Time to head back to camp. Lead me back to my Bronco" and that was a test, or sorts, to prove that I knew where I was in relation to where I wanted to be, and knew how to get where I wanted to be. Uncle Bob would whip out the USGS 7.5 minute Butler Peak, CA quadrangle and say, "Show me where we are" and "Show me how we got here" and "Show me where my Jeep is" and show me where our property is." I also had to learn to drive flat-fender Jeeps and early Broncos on trails. Another part was chipping in with all of the chores involved in living in the bush without being asked to do them.

I had been a tag-along observer since I was 5. When I was 10, my dad, uncles, and family friends who shared camp with us all agreed that I could find my way around without getting lost and I could factually do exactly that by the time I got my license.

It was same deal for my cousins. When we were 11 and 12, we'd hop on Honda Trail 70's with guns and be gone until supper-time. We'd hit favored bunny-busting spots, miles apart from each other. We'd go back to our property and clean and skin the rabbits, grab fishing rods, and head off to a creek or a pond and fish. After a while of doing that, we'd go back to our property and exchange tackle for guns and get after the bunnies again.

Nobody worried about us getting lost or doing something stupid because there was no reason to.

My saga isn't much different than that of plenty of others of my age who grew up hunting and fishing in the western states.

 

[Cherokeeguide]

At some point there needs to be a ethical minimum. I think we all agree. The 22lr can kill a deer just fine, the 22wmr does it fantastically. However the smaller you go the more options you are giving up.

We have the "ethical minimum" in my current home state. It is essentially the .223 Remington and it is the same in every state that I hunt hoofed game in. There is no reason here in 2026 why that shouldn't be the case.

However the smaller you go the more options you are giving up.

I was a licensed and bonded hunting and fishing guide (#2725) in California from 1995 to 2012 and guiding was a full-time occupation for me from the day I left law enforcement in 1996 to 2007.

As a GUIDE, I needed things out of a rifle that I absolutely don't need as a sport hunter, for the very simple reason that if I had to shoot while guiding, I was forced by circumstance to make shots I would happily pass on in my own sport hunting endeavors.

When I started guiding pig hunters, I carried an inherited Griffin and Howe Springfield in good, old-fashioned .30-'06. That worked until it didn't and the instance where it didn't had me shooting stern to stem on a pig intent on crossing a three-tier barbed-wire property boundary fence. He was within yards of it and headed for a live oak thicket between himself and the fence when I fired my first shot. He was deep into that live oak thicket when I pulled my stripper-clip out and closed the bolt on my seventh shot, that finally ended the drama. After that, for my next batch of clients, I used my Ruger No.1 Tropical in .375 Holland and Holland. I kept using that for several years. That thing would absolutely stop a pig on a stern to stem shot, every time, without fail. But it wasn't the best thing going for wounded runners in my hands, so I ended up using a CZ 550 in 9.3 X 62. That would also stop a pig in its tracks on a stern to stem shot, without fail.

As a sport hunter, though, I don't need that kind of heavy artillery that I found useful as a guide, because I'm not taking a shot over 300 yards, I'm not taking a shot on animal that isn't stationary when I pull the trigger, and I'm not taking a shot on an animal that isn't offering me a broadside poke through its heart. That's nothing new. I've operated that way since my first season as a licensed hunter when I was an 11 year old kid in 1976.

Aside from two trips to Newfoundland for caribou and two trips to Botswana, and the pig hunting I do with my in-laws and grandson in Italy, I've never hunted east of the Mississippi River. The longest shot I've made on game as a sport hunter was 278 yards.

I literally can't count the number of California Central Coast pigs I tagged with pipsqueak cartridges like the .250 Savage and the .30-30 Winchester.

I still have my log books from my guide service, so I know how many pigs I saw get shot and killed by clients, shooting everything from the .222 Remington in a Remington Model Seven rifle to the .458 Lott and all of the popular stuff in between. It's over 1,000 pigs over 11 years.

Here's a very unpopular truth: assuming a pig shot in the heart / lung cavity on a broadside presentation, there isn't any substantive difference in the wound channels made by a .223 Remington tipped with proven medium game bullets to "better" cartridges like the .243 Winchester, 6mm Remington, .257 Roberts, .25-;06, .260 Remington, .270 Winchester, or the 7mm-08 Remington. On broadside presentations, any of them get exactly the same result from a vital-zone shot out to 300 yards.

I had a client who wanted to bring his daughter on her first hooved-game hunt. She had a Remington Model Seven in .222 Remington which he said she shot well, but I need not worry, because he was going to trade that rifle in and get her a 7mm-08.........

I had the devil of a time convincing him that his eight year old daughter and I would be a whole lot happier if he just let her give it a try with the rifle she already has. "No, the only pig she'll see isn't going to be beyond the range of a .222 Remington to kill it dead." "No, she's not going to be taking quartering shots under any circumstance." "Yes, I am absolutely good enough to get you, her, and me within 150 yards of a pig." I finally convinced him by saying that if I had to finish what she started, I'd let her try my .250 Savage, which recoils about as much as a .223 in a bolt action does, and if she was okay with that, we'd go out the next day and let her whack another one with that. The kid drilled a 290 pound boar with tusks just shy of 4" through the heart at 82 yards. Predictably, it was a clean kill. Post-mortem revealed the heart was mostly goo.

Some of the kids I guided had deer hunting experience. I could tell them that the vital zone of a wild pig is significantly lower and farther forward in the chest cavity compared to that of a deer, and thus a standard behind-the-shoulder shot that is effective for deer typically results in a missed vital shot or a "gut shot" due to the pig's more compact body and forward shoulder structure, and they would take that to heart. Some of their parents, on the other hand, would nod like they were paying attention and understood, then proceed with a behind-the-shoulder shot when I said "Okay, take him.."

Not only have I seen literally hundreds of examples of what the .223 Remington with proper bullets can do to a pig on a broadside shot that is the vital zone, I've seen what every popular "deer cartridge" does to a pig with white-tail deer shot placement, too. The result is always a whole lot less than immediately lethal. Even a .300 Winchester Magnum won't compensate for gut-shooting.

I started using the .223 Remington for California A-Zone black-tail deer in 1984 and racked up 22 consecutive filled tags with it. When I started using the cartridge, it was not as versatile as I believe it to be today. We didn't have the component bullets or the cannister grade powders back then that combine to make a 5.56 NATO have slightly better "on paper ballistics" than a .250 Savage does at 200 to 300 yards, but we do have them now.

I tagged at least 21 mule deer with the .250 Savage, which absolutely doesn't kill things any deader than my 5.56 NATO hunting loads can, while also not shooting as flat, or being as resistant to wind deflection as the 5.56. It is hard to find ammo and brass for, and with the taper of the case, the brass doesn't last through as many re-loads as LC 5.56 brass does. It also takes about 10 grains more gun-powder to get performance slightly worse on paper than many 5.56 NATO hunting loads have.

I'm not limited in shot options by virtue of hunting deer-sized game with the 5.56 NATO. I use the 5.56 NATO because I limit my shot options to under 300 yards on stationary animals offering a broadside presentation. It kills stuff just as dead, just as fast, as anything else does under the same set of circumstances.

 

[Cherokeeguide]

The common "6.5CM/.260/7mm-08 is a great kids' gun" view is a bad one in my opinion.

Mine, too.

It is 2026. In the here and now, I personally believe that the .223 Remington / 5.56 NATO is a far superior choice, and I'm living that belief myself, because it's what I hunt hooved game with.

When I was a licensed and bonded hunting and fishing guide (#2725) in California, I once had a client who sought to book a Central Coast pig hunt for himself and his pre-teen daughter. His daughter, he said, was a really good shot with a Remington Model Seven in .222 Remington, but I need not worry, because he was going to trade that rifle for something in 7mm-08, and have her use that, instead.

I told him that his daughter and I would probably both be happier if he just let her use the rifle she already has and is already familiar with. I had a very difficult time convincing him to not do me any "favors" by forcing his little girl into shooting something with significantly more recoil. She ended up taking her first head of hooved game by shooting a 298 pound boar with nearly 4" tusks though the heart at 82 yards.

I couldn't do this if I was still guiding in California today, but if I could, and a client said they have a kid and want to book a pig hunt for the both of them, and asked for advice regarding what to arm said kid with, I'd suggest and AR-15 "optics-ready carbine" like the old DPMS Oracle but with a 1:8 or 1:7 twist barrel and that they have it sighted in for and let the kid practice with 5.56 NATO 77 grain TMK loads.

they will kill anything that walks in North America out to 400+ yards with the correct bullet selection

I'll never know from first-hand practical experience, because the longest shot I've ever taken in a sport hunting situation so far was 278 yards, and the limit of my comfort zone is 300, no matter what I'm armed with.

The T3x compact .223 is THE young kid's rifle. Second place is the Howa Mini in 6mm ARC

Here, you and I will have to agree to disagree. I think that a an AR-15 "optics ready carbine" with a good 2-stage National Match trigger and high speed hammer in the lower is THE "young kids rifle" and there is no second place.

Not only can a kid whack deer stone-cold dead with it, they can also get schooled by the CMP in organized match shooting in the CMP Games Modern Military matches.

If I were starting out my kids today, we'd have a dad / kid project where we start with a stripped AR-15 lower and I coach them into assembling their rifle themselves. The chambering would be 5.56 NATO so they can use the rifle in CMP matches where I shoot my own AR-15.

I'd also insist that every cartridge they shoot is one they assemble themselves.

I've seen consistently better kills with the 77 TMK

I haven't.

What I have seen, on shots inside the heart / lung cavity on broadside shots out to 300 yards are wound channels that are indistinguishable from those made by the .243 Winchester, 6mm Remington, .250 Savage, .257 Roberts, .260 Remington, 7mm-08, or .270 Winchester. It makes wider wound channels than my old 170 grain Speer Hot Core .30-30 load did, and about the same as my later 160 grain FTX .30-30 load with an average MV of 2,370 fps did.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the 5.56 NATO with the 77 grain TMK kills "better" than other cartridges do, but I absolutely do believe that kills things just as dead on the same broadside presentation shot placement as other cartridges I've used, like the .250 Savage, .257 Roberts, and .270 Winchester does, and the .243 Winchester, as well.

I've killed 22 black-tailed deer, 36 whitetails, 2 mule deer, and God only knows how many feral pigs with the .223 / 5.56, and it works well enough for this old man that I really don't need anything else.

I can see why it shouldn't work as well for a kid as it does for old man me.