Kids rifle manifesto

[Azhunter10]

I agree completely with the OP, I start my now 14 year old shooting when he was 8 and my now 10 year old when he was 6.

Both started on a suppressed 22lr, once they were comfortable shooting that, I moved them up to a suppressed 5.56 which they took longer to get comfortable with. The recoil for my younger son made him nervous. So we had him go back to the 22. Now they both shoot a suppressed 25 Creedmoor and spot shots.

The brakes with how loud they are and the flash was a huge factor for my boys and some people I have helped learn to shoot. They developed a flick and a fear of them.

I absolutely agree with the OP and a lot of the other posts where suppressors definitely mitigate that noise and recoil and make it a less stressful learning experience for kids and adults!

 

[Piranha37]

Really appreciate this post! I have a 4 year old who is already itching to shoot a ‘real’ gun. I filed the paperwork for my first suppressor just for reasons in this post. I don’t even have a gun to put it in yet but with the wait times I went ahead and got the suppressor piece in motion. This post helps me solidify getting a .223 over a .243. Now I have to figure out if he’s left or right eye dominant.

I’ve got a kid that’s right handed but left eye dominant, so I’m teaching him to shoot left handed. It’s not hard to figure out, but it took me a while to realize why he was holding his head weird shooting a 22 LR scope. I’m sure you have figured out by now, but let me know if you need help determining the dominant eye.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[scott m-70]

Started my son with a 243 at 14, he shot his first buck with it. I bought him a remington 700 SS mountain rifle in 260 for his 16th birthday, 15 years later he is still hunting with it.. its a great deer rifle.

 

[SloppyJ]

As a follow up to this topic, I went with a tikka t3x lite in .223 for my son this year. I chopped it down to 16" and put a 3x9 Trijicon creedo along with a Dilligent Defense Wolfhunter.

My son 7 and he's been on a few hunts with me up to this point. We pretty much have to use a blind to hide movement and just facilitate a better overall experience. Using a blind means I can use a tripod for him and that has been a game changer. I know Form is a firm beliver that the kids should be able to handle the rifle fully. I don't disagree with that but holding it for an offhand shot is a bit much for him. Teaching him to build a position is a bit much at 7 too.

We practiced all summer with it shooting 75gr HPBTs out to 100yds and finally worked up a good enough load with 77tmks just before season. He made two perfect shots on two bucks last weekend from under 50yds. My jaw hit the floor both times and I couldn't be more proud. The Tikka .223 was the best option and I'm extremely glad that I went that route. Hell, I like it so much I'd like to build one for myself in a lefty model.

The first buck (button buck) instantly dropped on the spot. The second was a little bit bigger and he bucked and we were able to watch him go down within 25yds. Both shots were through the shoulder with a golf ball sized exit out the opposite shoulder. Somehow the exit wound through the hide was small but under the shoulder was nasty. If you're in this perdiciment, go with the same setup hands down. I'm now sitting on 1k 77tmks and we are set for a VERY long time. The ONLY thing I didnt like was that we didn't find much blood on the second deer that ran. It started about 20yds after the shot. I imagine it had to pool up inside to start coming out. More testing to come on that front.

 

[Unckebob]

As a follow up to this topic, I went with a tikka t3x lite in .223 for my son this year. I chopped it down to 16" and put a 3x9 Trijicon creedo along with a Dilligent Defense Wolfhunter.

My son 7 and he's been on a few hunts with me up to this point. We pretty much have to use a blind to hide movement and just facilitate a better overall experience. Using a blind means I can use a tripod for him and that has been a game changer. I know Form is a firm beliver that the kids should be able to handle the rifle fully. I don't disagree with that but holding it for an offhand shot is a bit much for him. Teaching him to build a position is a bit much at 7 too.

We practiced all summer with it shooting 75gr HPBTs out to 100yds and finally worked up a good enough load with 77tmks just before season. He made two perfect shots on two bucks last weekend from under 50yds. My jaw hit the floor both times and I couldn't be more proud. The Tikka .223 was the best option and I'm extremely glad that I went that route. Hell, I like it so much I'd like to build one for myself in a lefty model.

The first buck (button buck) instantly dropped on the spot. The second was a little bit bigger and he bucked and we were able to watch him go down within 25yds. Both shots were through the shoulder with a golf ball sized exit out the opposite shoulder. Somehow the exit wound through the hide was small but under the shoulder was nasty. If you're in this perdiciment, go with the same setup hands down. I'm now sitting on 1k 77tmks and we are set for a VERY long time. The ONLY thing I didnt like was that we didn't find much blood on the second deer that ran. It started about 20yds after the shot. I imagine it had to pool up inside to start coming out. More testing to come on that front.

Good luck. I bought the same rifle for two purposes.
- Cheap practice for me
- Cheap practice for the kids. They will either use the Tikka or a suppressed 6ARC Savage. I am leaning towards the Tikka because it is so light and handy.

 

[Nine Banger]

 

[NPBravo]

Mom seemed to suggest that she’d be interested in some precision rifle, and my thoughts went immediately to this thread.

I’m on board with the idea that we need light weight along with low recoil and blast.

If I was doing this for myself, I would be tempted on either 22ARC or 6ARC, but I’m pretty sure I’ll go 5.56x45mm for this.

I’m already stocked on quality 5.56mm, the 75 ELDM is what I prefer for when I need precision small caliber autorifle duties, and I need to be sensitive to logistics.

She’s not into rifle hunting, this would be a straight range gun.

I really wonder how light a 5.56mm shooting heavies can be while still having shot spotting be easy.

 

[outdoordad]

Thanks Eric! I bought a tikka t3x in 6.5 cm last summer and my 14 year old killed his first elk with it a couple of weeks ago. He seems to shoot it reasonably well, but definitely not as well as I do. I’m assuming it’s the recoil sensitivity. I also have an 8 year old that will be hunting soon. Although we can’t hunt with a .223 in Washington, We’ll be getting a .223 as a practice gun and planning on converting the 6.5 to a 6 creedmore.

 

[SchwarzStock]

Although I have a fondness for a bunch of old calibers (50-70, 50-90) and some other big recoil calibers the 22LR is still high on my list. For my kids ( boy/girl twins) I built them both Remington rolling blocks when they were 9 yo. Both actions are vintage 1893-5 but wear new Green Mountain barrels. Sights on one are Lyman the on the other MVA, wood is original that I intend to replace with Treebone at some point.

My son is a hunter so his rifle imitates my 50-70 roller I use for hunting. When I was lookiing for the barrel I could not get a .223 barrel so his was built as a 22 WMR. My daughter completed the Arizona Hunter safety course but I do not believe she will ever hunt (currently studying veterinary medicine) so hers I patterned as a Rolling Block target rifle from the 1870's-1890's.

 

[Gbrecka]

The lop on tikka compact stocks fit kids from about 55# and up. It's better if you raise the comb though to get their eye lined up with the scope. Rokstock is the easy way, my tikka stock mod thread is the cheap way.

Do you have a link to this thread? Didn’t find it in my search, thanks!

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Do you have a link to this thread? Didn’t find it in my search, thanks!

How I Modify My Tikka Factory Stocks

This is the start to finish process I use on my tikka factory stocks to help them have a consistent POI and improve shootability. None of this is completely new information, but there are a few unique things I do, and this is a consolidation post. This is stuff that I'm capable of doing to my...

rokslide.com

 

[hunterjmj]

This has been a great thread. Both my girls started out with cricket .22lr's and still shoot them. I bought a Weatherby Vanguard .243 in a youth model for them a couple years ago and now it's at the smith getting threaded. If I knew then what I know now I would have gotten a tikka .223 but I think it'll be a great rifle suppressed. My wife's 6.5cm is also getting threaded because she said it kicks way too much. My youngest daughter is a lefty so I'll be getting a lefty tikka .223 for her. When the girls were little I'd blow up balloons and tack them to a board for them to shoot and they loved that. Now we go out and shoot rocks, prairie dogs and a gong I bought. Sitting at a bench is boring for me and I know it's really boring for the kids so I try to get them out on blm shooting different positions and different targets while hiking around. It's fun and will make them better shooters in the field.

 

[Nine Banger]

When the girls were little I'd blow up balloons and tack them to a board for them to shoot and they loved that.

That's a great idea.

My boys like shooting their old toys to see what's inside.

 

[SchwarzStock]

When the girls were little I'd blow up balloons and tack them to a board for them to shoot and they loved that.

LOL, I was once shooting a sales demonstration for Remington in Argentina and had planned to use some small fragible targets. Somehow they didn't make it so we decided to use balloons stapled to some cardboard backers. We wanted them small as possible so they just got a "puff" of air to fill them out. Unfortunately we didn't test it before the event. Of the first 5 shots it appeared I had missed two at less than 200m. I knew the shots were good and was getting more frustrated as the event went on and there were more "misses". Eventually we noticed some of the earlier "misses" were now deflated. When we got a chance to check we discovered the now deflated balloons were hit and burned creating a slow leak. Lesson learned; put enough air in the balloon so it will pop when hit.

 

[CoMtnMike]

I've chimed in on so many different "what rifle for my age XX kid?" threads that I thought I'd try to consolidate my thoughts here.

My oldest son is 14 now, started shooting centerfire rifles at 9. My younger kids started shooting centerfire rifles at between 5-7 yrs old. 5 kids shooting now, and a bunch of their friends that I have been involved or around as they learn to shoot. probably 20-ish kids? Here's what I've learned in the last 5-6 years.

Recoil matters, a lot. "Handles it pretty well" is way way different from "ideal for building skills as a rifleman." My oldest loves to shoot, wasn't scared of 7mm-08 recoil, but it pushed him around a lot more than I realized at the time. He definitely started to anticipate the shot breaking, even when we played the "dad loads the rifle and puts dummies in there" game pretty regularly.

The common "6.5CM/.260/7mm-08 is a great kids' gun" view is a bad one in my opinion. A 120-140 grain bullet going 2700+ FPS over 42-44 grains of powder is going to have recoil energy in the mid teens at least. 15 ft-lb for a 100lb kid is proportionally like an 8 lb .300WM for a 200lb man (~30 ft-lb recoil). A .243 is around 10-12 ft-lb, and a .223 is 5 or 6 ft-lb. Please realize, your kid gets pushed twice as hard as you do by the rifle. A .243 rocks your kid about like a .30-06 hits you, from a physics lens.

The effect that that recoil has on them is greater also (typically). Think about the snap of a rubber band. It does not scale with body weight, from a physics perspective, it affects you and your kid equally. But a snap that is hard enough to just begin to disrupt your focus and concentration is going to be much more disruptive to the focus and concentration of a child.

A brake is not the answer. Permanent hearing damage will occur, and flinching will not be cured. Several of my friends now have kids with braked 6.5CM's or larger. They anticipate the blast and don't shoot better because of the brake. Double hearing protection is a must at the range and should be done in the field but no one does. In the field, adding ear pro to the shot process is not something I am interested in doing. If you're in a box blind, a pair of electronic muffs are great and while not truly hearing safe are probably fine for a shot or two. The problems I've found are making sure everyone present has them in/on before the shot and the difficulty in quiet communication if not everyone has electronics. The process of teaching a kid to focus and stay composed is enough of a challenge without adding those factors. Carrying electronic muffs sucks in the backcountry/mountains, but I realize that's less of an issue for a lot of folks.

Suppressors are a game changer. Reducing recoil and report/blast has a huge positive impact on letting kids learn to focus on the fundamentals and not tense up in anticipation of the explosion that's about to happen 6 inches from their face. Do it if you can.

With nearly perfect correlation, I see two trends.
1) people who recommend a .308 size cartridge or larger (to include 6.5CM, 7mm-08, etc), often with reduced recoil ammo, have not taught very many kids to shoot. It "worked for them" or their kid "handled it fine". That was me with my oldest. We started him with a 7mm-08 for "his first deer rifle" on the conventional wisdom that it was a great kids' cartridge that he could grow into.

2) people who have taught lots of kids to shoot always recommend the very bottom end of the recoil spectrum. .223, 6mm ARC, MAYBE 6CM/.243 with a suppressor (especially if we're talking about teens rather than 10 yr olds). I very seldom see someone who's been really actively engaged in helping more than a handful of kids become good riflemen recommend 6.5CM or larger for a kids' rifle (and the only ones that do are ones who have never tried .223 or small 6mm with good bullets).

The T3x compact .223 is THE young kid's rifle. Second place is the Howa Mini in 6mm ARC (especially if suppressed). Both are cheap to feed and easy to load for, recoil is very low, and they will kill anything that walks in North America out to 400+ yards with the correct bullet selection (see .223 thread and 6mm thread). I've seen consistently better kills with the 77 TMK and 108 ELDM than I ever did with 120 NBT's out of my son's 7mm-08.

To recap, I 100% believe thad no preteen or early teen child is going to have an optimal learning setup with a rifle that runs more than 150 grains combined bullet and powder weight, and if we are approaching that it should 100% be suppressed. 100 to 125 grains combined weight is far preferable, and the difference is not debatable to anyone I know who has tried both ways.

The difference between a kid watching an impact on steel in the scope and telling Dad, "hit!" before hearing the impact, vs asking Dad whether he hit or not is such a big difference, it really is almost two different activities.

Edit to add: Please feel free to add your experiences of teaching kids to shoot. My hope would be that we could get multiple people who have taught lots of kids and seen trends and patterns, vs what I had when I was starting out (not enough different things tried to draw conclusions about what works better or worse). I think a thread that draws a lot of these experiences together could be a great starting point for folks looking to teach their kids.

Wow, thanks for posting all this info! I was looking at a 6.5CM for my kiddo, but now think I'll pass.. Heck he is 65Lbs and turns 12 in April so he can start hunting in CO... but with that weight I might need to just stick to .22LR and start him with small game - although my luck finding squirrel spots has been pretty poor so that is a separate challenge. But sounds like 6CM/.243/6ARC might still be too much for a 65lbs kid and I should hold off rather than have him afraid of the recoil and developing bad habits by starting too early for him....

 

[ResearchinStuff]

If my 12 year old was 65#, and I was hunting colorado, I would build a suppressed 6x45 or 6 arc (and download it). Also, I would increase their rations. That growth spurt has to be right around the corner.

Also, I'd still have a 223 for them to practice, my kids at 55# could handle suppressed 223.

 

[Timberline001]

Wow, thanks for posting all this info! I was looking at a 6.5CM for my kiddo, but now think I'll pass.. Heck he is 65Lbs and turns 12 in April so he can start hunting in CO... but with that weight I might need to just stick to .22LR and start him with small game - although my luck finding squirrel spots has been pretty poor so that is a separate challenge. But sounds like 6CM/.243/6ARC might still be too much for a 65lbs kid and I should hold off rather than have him afraid of the recoil and developing bad habits by starting too early for him....

When my sister was that size I built her a 6x45. (.223 necked up to 6mm) We shot 87 gr VMAX at 2800 and it was an amazing 400 yard deer and antelope rifle for her. With a silencer the 6 ARC would have a little less recoil with 108 factory loads than our 6x45 did without a muzzle device.

 

[CoMtnMike]

Overall there is this idea that you should make it as easy as possible- clip the rifle into a tripod, move the rifle onto the target and let them pull the trigger. Same for when hunting “make sure the have success”. No. I followed that line of thinking for quite a few people when I started- it’s terrible advice. It’s not that you artificially make it harder, it’s that you let them have a challenge to overcome and to be apart of the whole process.
What would happen if your kid got on video game, but you controlled the character, moved it into position for them, aimed at it, and all they did was sit and watch you do that, then reach up and pull the trigger? They would quit and never want to play again.

That’s why kids don’t get lifetime addicted/passionate about hunting anymore- there’s no experience, there is no challenge, there’s nothing but walk behind dad as he carries the rifle, stand there he spots the animal, stand there as he sets the tripod/bipod up, stand there as he ranges, stand there as he dials, stand there as he loads the rifle, stand there as he aims it in, then lay down/stand behind it and pull a trigger- yay what fun. If I did that to any parent that does that for kids- he’d rage quit, yet we are told that is how you should do it.
I’ve seen it done, and did it like that for dozens of kids and women- not one is a hunter as an adult. That isn’t fun.
The reverse is to make them apart of the whole thing- the rifle is fit to them and is light enough that they carry it always- it’s their rifle, they load it, they zero it, they dial it, they build the position, etc. It recoils low enough that they can shoot it without any effects whatsoever for 100 plus rounds a day. Once past the fundamentals of shooting on demand, then practice is treated like a game- timer, targets, race each other, etc. Treat it like play- yes it’s a gun, but it can be safe and fun.
When it comes to scouting, they are involved in every aspect- it’s their hunt, not yours. Go walk around the woods, teach them woodmanship, track, game trails, stalk a squirrel- etc. When the hunt comes, let them have a say where you go and how you hunt- just because valley “A” has more animals, doesn’t mean if they want to go to valley “B” that you shouldn’t- let them hunt and learn. If your plan was to hike then sit and glass, but they want to get up and still hunt an hour in- get up, teach them how to still hunt, or track through snow, etc.
When you see an animal- it’s their animal. It’s not about you, nor is it about how much you want them to be successful- let them setup and make the shot. When the animal is down, it’s their animal- they are primarily responsible for gutting it/quartering it, etc. Of course help, but let them have agency over the whole process.

On that, it’s a serious mistake to take a person and have their first animal and experience be a big game animal- especially a child.
There is a psychological component to killing, but there also is an “what now” component with it. You kill a buck or an elk in the beginning- where do they go from there? They didn’t earn it, they didn’t build up to it- you turned the video game on, went right to the main bad guy at the end of the game, they shot him once and it’s over. Again- yay, so fun. People do much better starting small and working their way up- spot and stalk squirrel hunting is probably the best thing one can do.

Children and woman primarily dislike hunting because it isn’t fun. Make it an adventure from start to finish. Certainly make suggestions when it’s prudent, but if they want to get up and go look over the hill, let them or go with them- let them lead. It’s their hunt not yours, so let them hunt. If they get tired sitting at your bestest, most favorite glassing spot- so what. Get up and start stalking- play army or whatever they want. It’s ok to put the guns down and have a pine cone war. A boring sit on a hill can turn into a wrestling match and make a memory forever. It also can be a boring thing with no challenge and no adventure, where they really don’t care to do it again.


I have introduced dozens of new hunters, women, and children; and seen them introduced in about every way possible. Every single one that was introduced and taught as I wrote above- making them apart of the whole adventure- has stayed with it and became lifetime hunters of their own volition. About 90% that were introduced how the masses say to do it, don’t hunt at all, or only extremely rarely- they are not into it.

I totally agree on this and how I teach my kids on everything, make them do as much themselves as they can. And I have been letting my son make decisions on where to go when I have taken him deer/pronghorn hunting the last 4 years... even "should we take this one" - so he has been there with 3 animals to process - but he only wants to hold legs for me not do the cutting so maybe he isnt ready...

And on the handling side it makes me think I should have gotten the 16" vs 21" barrel Mark II .22LR... hmmm

 

[CoMtnMike]

If my 12 year old was 65#, and I was hunting colorado, I would build a suppressed 6x45 or 6 arc (and download it). Also, I would increase their rations. That growth spurt has to be right around the corner.

Also, I'd still have a 223 for them to practice, my kids at 55# could handle suppressed 223.

Well, I dont have experience building guns or handloading and likely dont have the time in my life right now for developing loads etc, but some of these calibers might be available in a factory compact gun I can consider...

Kid eats great, but both my kids follow my wife's growth curve not mine - they have been stable at about the 10th percentile their whole lives...

And I guess I am convinced I need to save up to get on the suppressor train.... and to find a gunsmith to thread a barrel if it doesn't come that way - It all adds up to more than just buying a cheap Savage... But hopefully a better experience than I had.

When I got into hunting in 2016 as a 40 something multiple people told me I needed at least a 30-06 for elk and I wouldn't be allowed in camp with them with a .270 etc... So I have a bit of a flinch myself and don't love shooting that thing (but it does kill everything I point it at, so my flinch doesnt impact me much in the field). I am convinced I can get by with something much smaller myself and suppressed and enjoy it enough to shoot much more... Ideally we will share it with adjustable LOP etc...

 

[ResearchinStuff]

suppressed 223's are just a ton of fun. suppressed anything is more fun than unsuppressed.

for an off the shelf bolt action solution, look at an 8 twist tikka 243 and the reduced recoil ammo: https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/243-win-87-gr-sst-custom-lite#!/

there aren't really great lop adjustable solutions for hunting, but if you got a tikka compact you'd have the removable spacer that kind of works-ish.