Is There Ever a Time to Hunt with Magnum Calibers?

[hereinaz]

Like most things in an engineer's brain, firearms fall into a category of things to be optimized. Just like backpacking gear, vehicles, etc.
For a hunting rifle, the attributes to be optimized are wound channels, external ballistics, shootability, and weight. For most of my hunts that rifle is a 6UM at about 7.5 lbs scoped (current one is 11.5, so another will be built).
The following is based on western hunting and plains game, in generally quite open terrain. This use case prioritizes external ballistics at long range without giving up the ability to achieve sufficient penetration at any reasonable shot angle.
Common magnum cases don't truly optimize 7mm+ bullets. They have the capacity to optimize up to ~6.5mm bullets. As mentioned above, it takes a really big case to optimize a big bullet. Lapua Improved, XC, HCM, etc. They have a place on hunts where difficult winds and extreme ranges are the rule. At that level, the extra recoil comes with an actual advantage over the 6UM.
Mid-capacity 7mm-338 magnums just don't offer anything in terms of terminal or external ballistics vs the 6UM for these types of hunting. The recoil is detrimental, and there is no advantage to go with it.
An extreme capacity magnum that comes in a little under 16 lbs is on my wish list, but that's about my only practical use for a big magnum.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

The 6 UM is definitely a sweet spot.

I haven’t shot one, but my 25 SST shooting 133s isn’t a whole lot more gun. Said it many times, after I saw what my 7mm was doing at long range, I knew I could drop down in barrel length and keep very similar ballistics.

Not gonna switch to a 6 UM as it is too similar, but will build a 22 creed. I already have a 22 BR I built for inside 500-600 depending on DA.

 

[hereinaz]

Like most things in an engineer's brain, firearms fall into a category of things to be optimized. Just like backpacking gear, vehicles, etc.
For a hunting rifle, the attributes to be optimized are wound channels, external ballistics, shootability, and weight. For most of my hunts that rifle is a 6UM at about 7.5 lbs scoped (current one is 11.5, so another will be built).

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

What barrel length you going to run on the new build? What velocity?

 

[HuntHarder]

Nice work @hereinaz of actually keeping it civil and data driven without opinion. Not demanding pictures and telling us how many kills you have. Some really good stuff in this thread.

 

[JGRaider]

Same sh&$, different day.......this has been beat to a pulp in numerous threads, yet here goes another that will still probably go 10+ pages.

 

[hereinaz]

Same sh&$, different day.......this has been beat to a pulp in numerous threads, yet here goes another that will still probably go 10+ pages.

Seriously, the comments that this topic is getting old are more tiresome than people trying to have a discussion.

It’s easy for you all to ignore it and just go about your day.

There are at least two of us trying to have an actual discussion. Besides the fact that there are new people coming all the time that haven’t looked through all the threads cause they just don’t know.

If you start a thread for complaining about threads I think are interesting, I promise I will be happy to ignore it, lol.

 

[Huntaddicted]

If you want to shoot a tiny cartridge, great. If you want to shoot a magnum, great. There is no right or wrong. Who really cares if a 223(or whatever) and a 300 win mag can accomplish the same task so long as either shooter is capable? Is there ever a time to hunt with a magnum? Of course there is. It's whenever a person wants to. We all have an opinion, and that's all it is.

JPW...there is no light to see. Not everyone is recoil sensitive or desires to spot the shot. I have no issues shooting a 458Lott, 470NE or 505Gibbs quite accurately at their effective ranges. Ditto with any smaller caliber magnums.

Yeah pretty new here but tend to agree with this. Put whatever you are shooting on target. Dead is dead.

There are lots of places big heavy bullets are appropriate and if a guy can hit the target with a big heavy bullet, it’s gonna have more of everything.

The animal doesn’t care how big the bullet is. The only thing i’ll say is i have witnessed animals folding up on the spot like with heavy bullets. Never seen that with a light one.

 

[tenth1]

I did not read the entire thread. I've shot deer with a normal 'ol .223 with 70 gr old school spitzers to moose with .375 H&H.

Several kills with "magnum" rounds such as .300 weatherby plus. I've gravitated away form magnums in my old age and don't see a reason to go back.

Even with the modern and ingeneous bullet designs out there now, the small caliber fad is head scratching to say the least. No hunter will have that perfect shot at xxx range, get a bullet that performs between REAL hunting ranges and shoot it A LOT.

None of this pussy footing around, big diameter is better for a multiple of ranges regardless of bullet construction. No replacement for displacement.

 

[z987k]

Yes, inside 300 yards, it makes very little difference what a hunter uses, which is why the small caliber “debate” is a little over wrought IMO.

Ballistically, between 300 to 600, there is some separation of ballistic performance based only on velocity and BC.

It’s not until past 600 that bullet velocity, BC and WEIGHT starts to matter.

At 800 to 1000 yards, you have to have crazy high velocity or you have to be a high BC bullet and over 150 grains to buck wind.

Past 1000, the level of precision is nigh impossible for high confidence shots on elk.

For anyone looking at reasonable “handloaded” numbers out to 1000, run the 6.5mm 156 Berger at 3050 fps and 7mm 180 VLD Berger at 3050 fps.

Any crazy hot cartridges loaded with heavy, high BC bullets like the 6 UM, 7 RUM, 300 Norma have everything maxed out with the foot standing on the gas pedal. They will be flat and long.

Explain how a bullet with a lower BC but over 150gr bucks wind better than one with a higher BC under 150gr.

 

[roadrunner]

Explain how a bullet with a lower BC but over 150gr bucks wind better than one with a higher BC under 150gr.

It's easier to push a bicycle than it is a Harley...

 

[PathFinder]

What barrel length you going to run on the new build? What velocity?

My current barrel is 24" (3b contour) and is a bit slow for the length, 3400. It will get a 26" or 28" once it's shot out and fill the truck hunting role.
The lightweight build will probably be a 20" barrel, though I haven't ruled out 18". Hoping for 3250 or maybe slightly more. It will only give up around 100 yards of MER while being much more backpack friendly. That 11.5 lb, 26" barreled gun has been a lot of places I'd rather not have carried it

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

 

[hereinaz]

Explain how a bullet with a lower BC but over 150gr bucks wind better than one with a higher BC under 150gr.

Conditions and context?

Sometimes it doesn’t matter as a practical matter, especially inside 300.

A 115 VLD out of a .257 Weatherby will buck wind better than a 115 VLD out of a 6 creed because of higher velocity, but there is a point that the BC wins out as the velocity decay is faster with the .257.

I can show the ballistics, but I don’t have a .257 115 in my app any more. Can’t remember the velocity my buddy is running.

Edit to add: For me, it is helpful to remember that “time” is a critical part of the calculations for drop and drift. The less time something is in the air, the less effect wind and gravity has.

Look at the ballistic charts in a post above, the 22 creed is “better” than the 7 SS, until a point that the lower weight of the 22 means it slows faster. The extra mass of the 180 means velocity decays slower. The BCs of the two aren’t that far apart to make a huge difference.

 

[hereinaz]

My current barrel is 24" (3b contour) and is a bit slow for the length, 3400. It will get a 26" or 28" once it's shot out and fill the truck hunting role.
The lightweight build will probably be a 20" barrel, though I haven't ruled out 18". Hoping for 3250 or maybe slightly more. It will only give up around 100 yards of MER while being much more backpack friendly. That 11.5 lb, 26" barreled gun has been a lot of places I'd rather not have carried it

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

I think I am going with a 20” 22 creed on an sig cross. If I can get 3200 I will be happy. Folding it will make it nicer the backpack and not look like an antenna, lol.

My 22 br is 18” on a Howa Mini, which is so much fun to shoot.

 

[Mike 338]

Yer ask'in the wrong question. Is there ever a time not to hunt squirrels with a non-magnum cartridge?

 

[JPW13]

None of this pussy footing around, big diameter is better for a multiple of ranges regardless of bullet construction. No replacement for displacement.

Better how?

It appears that small match bullets are a replacement for big tough bullets - isn't that a replacement for displacement? When/where does the big bullet actually make the difference. It seems like perhaps at ranges that are beyond what we should hunt at anyway?

 

[hereinaz]

None of this pussy footing around, big diameter is better for a multiple of ranges regardless of bullet construction. No replacement for displacement.

You made a judgment at some point, because there are much bigger bores and bullets.

Why do you not shoot a .500 caliber?

All your reasons can be scaled down and weighed in favor of the small calibers: such as cost, recoil, meat damage, you don’t need more displacement, etc.

 

[tenth1]

You made a judgment at some point, because there are much bigger bores and bullets.

Why do you not shoot a .500 caliber?

All your reasons can be scaled down and weighed in favor of the small calibers: such as cost, recoil, meat damage, you don’t need more displacement, etc.

I do shoot a 50 caliber in muzzy season.... But not your point. There is a point of dimminishing returns where I would catogorze as around .375 max for MY hunting style (deere, elk, moose, antelope). Meat game, 6.5mm is the lowest I would use now.

Yes, they can be scaled down. Performance is subjective but in general, will also be scaled down.

Cost: Not sure about this one, .308 is pretty cheap and very effective.

Recoil: Again, hard to beat .260rem,7mm-08 308, 30-06, 300 H&H, etc. Download to your hearts content and still get better energy than a .223 rem.

Meat damage: This one is hard, but has nothing to do with caliber. I'me a hard core reloader and have seen bullets do odd things in even succesive shots. Disagree.

Better how?

It appears that small match bullets are a replacement for big tough bullets - isn't that a replacement for displacement? When/where does the big bullet actually make the difference. It seems like perhaps at ranges that are beyond what we should hunt at anyway?

I go hunting with it mind that I may have a 20 - 800yd shot.

Lets go with a common long range "hunting" bullet, say a 105 gr 6mm Berger VLD. When I'm walking in the tundra and hit the rise and see a caribou 20 yds away, I'm not going to run away to 500 yds away for it to be in the "zone". No, I/we shoot and the bullet explodes on impact.

Now picture shouldering a .30 cal in what I call a balanced rifle (308, 30-06, 300 H&H, etc). The frontal enery impact is expontially larger regaldless of bullet construction. The small caliber is hugely reliant kinitic forces "deploying" the bullet at a given speed and target density.

 

[hereinaz]

I do shoot a 50 caliber in muzzy season.... But not your point. There is a point of dimminishing returns where I would catogorze as around .375 max for MY hunting style (deere, elk, moose, antelope). Meat game, 6.5mm is the lowest I would use now.

Yes, they can be scaled down. Performance is subjective but in general, will also be scaled down.

Cost: Not sure about this one, .308 is pretty cheap and very effective.

Recoil: Again, hard to beat .260rem,7mm-08 308, 30-06, 300 H&H, etc. Download to your hearts content and still get better energy than a .223 rem.

Meat damage: This one is hard, but has nothing to do with caliber. I'me a hard core reloader and have seen bullets do odd things in even succesive shots. Disagree.



I go hunting with it mind that I may have a 20 - 800yd shot.

Lets go with a common long range "hunting" bullet, say a 105 gr 6mm Berger VLD. When I'm walking in the tundra and hit the rise and see a caribou 20 yds away, I'm not going to run away to 500 yds away for it to be in the "zone". No, I/we shoot and the bullet explodes on impact.

Now picture shouldering a .30 cal in what I call a balanced rifle (308, 30-06, 300 H&H, etc). The frontal enery impact is expontially larger regaldless of bullet construction. The small caliber is hugely reliant kinitic forces "deploying" the bullet at a given speed and target density.

My experience with Berger bullets on two caribou is explosive pass through inside 100 yards, as in giant pieces of lung and blood flying out and cue ball/baseball sized exits with .25 cal 133 EH at 3150 fps and .284 cal 180 VLD at 3075. I believe I could safely shoot the .243 115 VLD at them too.

Not sure at what velocity all the energy is transferred in an inch or two of shoulder, like I have heard repeated but never seen an example. If it happens, seems to be extraordinarily rare—like failure of an accubond type rare.

 

[tenth1]

My experience with Berger bullets on two caribou is explosive pass through inside 100 yards, as in giant pieces of lung and blood flying out and cue ball/baseball sized exits with .25 cal 133 EH at 3150 fps and .284 cal 180 VLD at 3075. I believe I could safely shoot the .243 115 VLD at them too.

Not sure at what velocity all the energy is transferred in an inch or two of shoulder, like I have heard repeated but never seen an example. If it happens, seems to be extraordinarily rare—like failure of an accubond type rare.

I was being fairly generic. The example was mine, the bullet exploded but killed and ruined a lot of meat.

Point being is that if I had used my trusty (and favored) 300 H&H with a solid 200gr partition, there likely would have been littl;e meat ruined and also retain the ability to shoot 600 yd plus without a worry of bullet failure. Displacement.

 

[JPW13]

I go hunting with it mind that I may have a 20 - 800yd shot.

Lets go with a common long range "hunting" bullet, say a 105 gr 6mm Berger VLD. When I'm walking in the tundra and hit the rise and see a caribou 20 yds away, I'm not going to run away to 500 yds away for it to be in the "zone". No, I/we shoot and the bullet explodes on impact.

Great example, and I completely agree with the need for a versatile setup that can handle everything from 20 to 800 yards. From my experience, smaller, frangible bullets can shine in exactly this scenario, offering flexibility that some heavier "long-range" bullets might lack.

For instance, I shot a deer at 70m with an 80-grain ELD-M to the neck, and it was DRT with minimal meat loss. The frangible nature of the bullet caused it to perform perfectly at close range and due to being a small calibre didn't create excessive damage. It was one of those shots where the combination of velocity, construction, and placement made all the difference.

Now, compare that to your 20-yard caribou scenario with a 105-grain Berger VLD at extreme close range. Is a .243 already too big? I don't think so, but it sounds like your concern is that a high-BC frangible bullet will fragment too quickly or cause excessive meat loss because they aren’t designed to handle the high impact velocities at close distances. On the flip side, small, frangible bullets like the ELD-M can work beautifully both up close and at long distances. One deer last year was DRT at 70m, the other deer was DRT at 500m (with a complete pass through both shoulders.

This is where I feel small calibers like the 22 Creedmoor, loaded with high-BC bullets like the 80- or 88-grain ELD-Ms, really excel. They give you that 20–800-yard versatility. The smaller, fast-expanding bullet performs well on game up close without over-damaging meat and still delivers reliable performance at distance, where it stays in the "zone" for expansion and energy transfer.

In honour of this thread I hit the range today with my 300WSM and 223. The WSM is 8.5lbs, unbraked, shooting 212 ELDX at 2850. I put 50 rounds on steel from 200-860m and energy on steel is awesome it THWACKS the plates even at 860M (950yards). The 223 *tinks* the same plate. But animals aren't steel plated and if the energy isn't stopped by steel is it wasted? The WSM was fun, but my shoulder felt it and comparatively, I could hit all the same plates with the 223 AND watch the vapor trail on it's journey to impact.

 

[ElGuapo]

Hey Rokslide,

I’ve been reading through the epic 500+ page thread on hunting large game with .224 caliber bullets, and I have to admit, it got me questioning everything I thought I knew about hunting calibers. You all have demonstrated time and again that with proper bullet construction (77 TMK, 80 and 88 ELDM) and sufficient velocity (1800 fps), small calibers are incredibly effective—even out to 800+ yards. I tested this myself during the '24 hunting season and had multiple successful kills and zero rodeos. My own experience and the consensus that bullet construction and terminal velocity matter more than raw energy, throws a wrench into the argument for heavy recoiling magnums.

Here’s my question: When, or is there ever, a time when a magnum caliber cartridge is advantageous for hunting?

If a .284 or .308 “heavy for caliber” bullet doesn’t carry velocity much farther than these high-BC .224s, and the energy carried by the larger bullet is deemed irrelevant, what purpose does the added recoil, weight, and reduced shooter accuracy of a magnum caliber really serve?

Is there EVER a specific situation—dense brush, dangerous game, or ELR hunting (although no better velocity than a 22CM and an 88 ELDM) —where the magnum still shines? Or is this a case where modern bullets and precision shooting have rendered magnums a relic of the past?

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

Every time…..