Is There Ever a Time to Hunt with Magnum Calibers?

[rbutcher1234]

Ok you’re right a belt fed would be better, but that’s beyond the scope of what most people are buying and carrying into the mountains for recreation haha.

 

[Balderdash]

Yes correct. A 556 with a tmk or a 6mm with good bullets (or in my case the biggest I use for not elr is a 168 308) anchors things far better than a bigger magnum. Mainly because the bullets all perform far past the threshold needed to anchor things, are easier to shoot well, and lend well to being effective as a shooter.

The best bear defense gun is a ar15 with a mag full of tmk or gold dots. There is no individual on the planet that will stop a charging bear with higher percentages using any gun in existence other than an ar15 with good bullets. Anyone arguing otherwise either hasn’t killed enough animals or is woefully ignorant how to run a gun with accuracy and speed. 0.20-0.25 splits to the face vs a magnum or shotgun? No contest

Yes, small calibers have the potential to kill game cleanly, and certainly a cogent argument can be made that they eventually do so as effectively as larger calibers; however, based on my experience in killing various sized game with a lot of different cartridges from 223 to 375 h&h, which is still pretty limited compared to others, I can report that I have experienced differences in immediate "anchoring game" capabilities.

Though I've hunted and otherwise spent a fair amount of time in grizzly country, I haven’t had to face down a charging grizzly, so can't comment on how it went with any cartridge. I have practiced with quick shots on close targets, and I feel pretty confident in landing a couple shots on CNS areas with several more traditional "bear stopper" bolt rifles.

An issue I have with the premise that a small caliber autoloader is going to be better suited to stopping an immediate large bodied threat is that it relies heavily on the action cycling as it should so that multiple hits can be made; we all know that flawless cycling is an issue with autos of any design - some of course more than others- especially with the adverse weather conditions often encountered in places that bears often live. As such, I'm still likely to carry one of my 338's or 375 bolts when charging bear possibility exists. Call me old fashioned that way.

 

[Justin Crossley]

If I'm ambush hunting from a glassing point and likely to be shooting longer distances I will bring a magnum sometimes. If I am likely to be shooting prone, the disadvantages to a magnum are much less because it's not hard to control the recoil and see your shots.

If the hunt is likely to be more dynamic and I may need to shoot from various positions, I will take a rifle with less recoil. Since that's most situations, I would choose something like a 22 CM to a 6.5 CM for almost all my hunting needs.

 

[CMF]

When I'm gun hunting whitetails on public 50yds from private land I carry my 45-70. I don't have to track them and they ain't making it to the private.

 

[FredH]

When?

When deep straight line penetration with wide wound channels and flat trajectories are needed .

 

[FredH]

Explain how a bullet with a lower BC but over 150gr bucks wind better than one with a higher BC under 150gr.

Most 150 grain bullets have higher BC than the 77 gr. Tipped matchking now famous out of the 223.

 

[FredH]

Great example, and I completely agree with the need for a versatile setup that can handle everything from 20 to 800 yards. From my experience, smaller, frangible bullets can shine in exactly this scenario, offering flexibility that some heavier "long-range" bullets might lack.

For instance, I shot a deer at 70m with an 80-grain ELD-M to the neck, and it was DRT with minimal meat loss. The frangible nature of the bullet caused it to perform perfectly at close range and due to being a small calibre didn't create excessive damage. It was one of those shots where the combination of velocity, construction, and placement made all the difference.

Now, compare that to your 20-yard caribou scenario with a 105-grain Berger VLD at extreme close range. Is a .243 already too big? I don't think so, but it sounds like your concern is that a high-BC frangible bullet will fragment too quickly or cause excessive meat loss because they aren’t designed to handle the high impact velocities at close distances. On the flip side, small, frangible bullets like the ELD-M can work beautifully both up close and at long distances. One deer last year was DRT at 70m, the other deer was DRT at 500m (with a complete pass through both shoulders.

This is where I feel small calibers like the 22 Creedmoor, loaded with high-BC bullets like the 80- or 88-grain ELD-Ms, really excel. They give you that 20–800-yard versatility. The smaller, fast-expanding bullet performs well on game up close without over-damaging meat and still delivers reliable performance at distance, where it stays in the "zone" for expansion and energy transfer.

In honour of this thread I hit the range today with my 300WSM and 223. The WSM is 8.5lbs, unbraked, shooting 212 ELDX at 2850. I put 50 rounds on steel from 200-860m and energy on steel is awesome it THWACKS the plates even at 860M (950yards). The 223 *tinks* the same plate. But animals aren't steel plated and if the energy isn't stopped by steel is it wasted? The WSM was fun, but my shoulder felt it and comparatively, I could hit all the same plates with the 223 AND watch the vapor trail on it's journey to impact.

High BC 80 and 88 grain .224 bullets? 485 and 545 respectively. A 162 gr, ELDX has a G1 BC of 625. I don't only hunt deer. I have to say that for elk hunting the .224 bullets suck hind tit.

 

[eric1115]

High BC 80 and 88 grain .224 bullets? 485 and 545 respectively. A 162 gr, ELDX has a G1 BC of 625. I don't only hunt deer. I have to say that for elk hunting the .224 bullets suck hind tit.

Do you base this view on having shot a lot of elk (or even just a few) with good .224 bullets?

I don't have a spread sheet to quantify it, but my gut feels on the numbers are that the experience/recommendation quadrants break down as follows:

50% Claim poor effectiveness, have not tried it.
35% Claim good effectiveness, have tried it.
14% Claim good effectiveness, have not tried it.
1% Claim poor effectiveness, have tried it.

If everyone that tries it likes it, I place very little value on the opinionof those saying, "never done it, won't try it. Period dot."

 

[FredH]

Do you base this view on having shot a lot of elk (or even just a few) with good .224 bullets?

I don't have a spread sheet to quantify it, but my gut feels on the numbers are that the experience/recommendation quadrants break down as follows:

50% Claim poor effectiveness, have not tried it.
35% Claim good effectiveness, have tried it.
14% Claim good effectiveness, have not tried it.
1% Claim poor effectiveness, have tried it.

If everyone that tries it likes it, I place very little value on the opinionof those saying, "never done it, won't try it. Period dot."

I have never been dumb enough to even consider any 22 centerfire for elk. I have hunted elk for over 40 years and have observed many cartridges in action. The worst offenders in creating long tracking jobs and difficult recoveries have been the 25-06 and the 243. Yes I have seen both rounds drop elk. Overall the best elk cartridges I have seen used a lot have been the 30-06 and the 7MM RM. Best bullet has been the Nosler Partition without question.

 

[eric1115]

I have never been dumb enough to even consider any 22 centerfire for elk. I have hunted elk for over 40 years and have observed many cartridges in action. The worst offenders in creating long tracking jobs and difficult recoveries have been the 25-06 and the 243. Yes I have seen both rounds drop elk. Overall the best elk cartridges I have seen used a lot have been the 30-06 and the 7MM RM. Best bullet has been the Nosler Partition without question.

What do you make of the large number of people who have tried it and reported great success using those bullets?

Many are former 7mm/.30 cal guys. I used to be one, currently a 6mm guy, but seriously considering a .22CM.

 

[WeiserBucks]

What do you make of the large number of people who have tried it and reported great success using those bullets?

Aprox how many is a large number in your opinion? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[roadrunner]

What do you make of the large number of people who have tried it and reported great success using those bullets?

Many are former 7mm/.30 cal guys. I used to be one, currently a 6mm guy, but seriously considering a .22CM.

Bullet design. Without the magical "TMK" (under high *energy ) you'd likely have former results...

 

[5811]

Aprox how many is a large number in your opinion? I'm genuinely curious.

Ooooh, that's the next big thread. A poll with a question about people's experiences with small cartridges on big game. Say 6mm/243 and smaller.

- large cartridges are my preference but I'm open to it
- I'll never try small cartridges on big game
- I've tried small cartridges and it was underwhelming so I'm back to shooting bigger
- I've gone small and I'm never going back

Maybe this exists and I just missed it?

 

[WeiserBucks]

Maybe this exists and I just missed it?

I'm well aware of the small cartridge guys here. Just curious as to the numbers outside of of our members.

 

[juju]

A magnum can do everything a 223 can do, but a 223 cannot do everything a mag can.

I bet a dollar is you were really bored, for a long time, you could even build one each having equivalent recoil. You just wouldn't want to carry the magnum around with you.

 

[5811]

I'm well aware of the small cartridge guys here. Just curious as to the numbers outside of of our members.

I know we have some here, a few of which are very vocal, but i have no idea what that ratio is across the sites membership.

 

[FredH]

What do you make of the large number of people who have tried it and reported great success using those bullets?

Many are former 7mm/.30 cal guys. I used to be one, currently a 6mm guy, but seriously considering a .22CM.

I don't care a whit about the few here (don't see large numbers,count em up and divide by the number of years the thread has run) who have reported success killing elk with .224 caliber rifles because they rarely would report failures as that would make it look like they made a mistake and few admit mistakes. Yes under certain circumstances you can kill elk with light cartridges, unfortunately those circumstances are the exception rather than the rule. The larger problems being not able to tell if you made a hit or not and zero blood trails. Having seen enough that I consider the 25-06 marginal and the 6.5's the minimum I would hunt elk with. I consider penetration with good wound channels important and the 22's and 24's just can't do both. Deer and antelope are well within their capabilities.

 

[Wrench]

The 25-06 can be magical on elk.....but it's also been plagued by bullets that couldn't hold up to it's velocity.

My one and only Roosevelt elk fell in it's tracks to a .257 100gr tsx with an mv of 3600 at 400 yards.

To say a .24 is in effective but a gun 15 thousandths of an inch larger is effective simply speaks to experience....or lack there of. A thin skinned bullet in a 300rum is potentially less effective than a medium skinned bullet in a .257bob or a tough bullet in a fast 22.

At the end of the day the thing that will keep you alive in a crunch situation is being familiar and confident with whatever gun you have, high sense of situational awareness and icy veins that keep you on target till you get the cns hit needed.....even if that means you have to become a human bowling pin.

 

[KHntr]

I have never been dumb enough to even consider any 22 centerfire for elk. I have hunted elk for over 40 years and have observed many cartridges in action. The worst offenders in creating long tracking jobs and difficult recoveries have been the 25-06 and the 243. Yes I have seen both rounds drop elk. Overall the best elk cartridges I have seen used a lot have been the 30-06 and the 7MM RM. Best bullet has been the Nosler Partition without question.

If you aren’t talking specific bullets instead of chamberings, then you are comparing pineapples to rutabagas instead of apples to apples.

Thats where the main difference falls between small cartridge guys and “ma three hunnert” guys.
Small cartridge guys are talking about specific bullets at specific minimum impact velocity windows, and big cartridge guys are talking about their rifle.
And a main point of the benefit of a big cartridge is that a person can ask a buddy what he should be using for elk in his new 300 wm and get an answer of “a 180 gr” and it will work as long as he can shoot it and have a bullet land in the front half. And that can be the extent of his knowledge about bullets and terminal effects and still have good results.

A small cartridge guy who has gone down the rabbit hole will likely know that he can kill elk just as effectively with a 77 TMK or 88 ELD m out to whatever range he can maintain 1800 fps impact velocity to, and that he won’t have the same effectiveness using a 62 gr TTSX or 50 gr GMX or any other number of bullets that have shown erratic performance, etc etc etc.

 

[WRO]

A small cartridge guy who has gone down the rabbit hole will likely know that he can kill elk just as effectively with a 77 TMK or 88 ELD m out to whatever range he can maintain 1800 fps impact velocity to, and that he won’t have the same effectiveness using a 62 gr TTSX or 50 gr GMX or any other number of bullets that have shown erratic performance, etc etc etc.

Yup story will involve 5 shots, post mortem autopsy photos, and hope great their tikka with a rokstok is.

I much prefer the I hit him with a 225 and ripped the rug out from under him experiences..


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