Is There Ever a Time to Hunt with Magnum Calibers?

[BRWNBR]

I would like to know about your experiences with Berger style bullets and what you didn't like about their performance?
I am also curious about your comments about exit holes. Is it simply because it shows good penetration and leaves blood trails if needed?

I will leave the 800 yard shot topic alone, except to say that some people are way more capable of that shot than your average joe six pack that checks his zero with 3 shots and then pot shots at 500 yards.
I greatly prefer close shots but will stretch a bit if needed under ideal conditions.

Berger bullets. Pretty much to sum it up. Hand gernades. Blow apart on impact. Lots of small shrapnel. Massive tissue damage. Minimal penetration (at sub 300 yard ranges) not enough juice to break bones. Sometimes not enough penetration to get enough vitals. Kinda looks like a bear got shot with number 8 shot outs a shotgun except the entrance hole is only one hole.
Great round for sheep,deer,antelope etc. but for bears or moose I wouldn’t use it. I go back to green box cod-lokt first. (I realize this is the internet, and we have more interpreters than the military. I’m NOT saying you can’t kill a bear or a moose with Berger bullets.)

Yes some are good shots and practice. Some at long range. Some at short. Seen a lot of lost and wounded game at 100 yards as well.

Exit holes. Wound channel shape. Narrow at both ends. BIG in the middle. If we have an exit hole that means that we have more BIG wound Channel inside the animal and less narrow. I love damage and exit holes tell me I got more damage. “Bullets staying inside means the animal soaked up all the energy”. I think we have all heard this, bears don’t understand energy but they do understand their lungs falling out of a hole in their chest.

 

[Scoutfan]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience. Plenty of people theorize about what works on bears. Very few have or will ever have the experience that you do,myself included.

Last question. I run 225 grain accubonds in my 35whelen at a little over 2800fps. It has performed great on everything that I have shot and I haven't caught one yet. I haven't shot any big bears or moose with it yet though. Do you feel like moving up to something like a 250 grain partion or a frame would make enough difference to really matter? I greatly prefer to have only one load per gun and learn that load well. Thanks

 

[BRWNBR]

Honestly this may sound kinda silly but, 25 grains on a 600-1200lb animal? Do you see that being a game changer?

You are correct. No. Your 225 is just fine. Full send my friend!

 

[Scoutfan]

Thanks. No, I don't think 25 grains makes much difference. Was thinking more about the higher weight retention of the A-frame for deeper penetration at any angle.

 

[rickyw]

The whole knock down thing that was discussed earlier…Just thoughts here:
If I throw a bowling ball at somebody who is not prepared for it, I may knock them over or around a bit. It won’t knock me down to throw it though. If I throw a tennis ball at them, it probably wont do much.
When i shoot a rifle, I’m in a position to absorb the shot and not get knocked off balance, even though it can still move me a bit depending on recoil. The animal may not be in a position to absorb the momentum. I’m not stating gospel here, these are just thoughts.

 

[tenth1]

Great example, and I completely agree with the need for a versatile setup that can handle everything from 20 to 800 yards. From my experience, smaller, frangible bullets can shine in exactly this scenario, offering flexibility that some heavier "long-range" bullets might lack.

For instance, I shot a deer at 70m with an 80-grain ELD-M to the neck, and it was DRT with minimal meat loss. The frangible nature of the bullet caused it to perform perfectly at close range and due to being a small calibre didn't create excessive damage. It was one of those shots where the combination of velocity, construction, and placement made all the difference.

Now, compare that to your 20-yard caribou scenario with a 105-grain Berger VLD at extreme close range. Is a .243 already too big? I don't think so, but it sounds like your concern is that a high-BC frangible bullet will fragment too quickly or cause excessive meat loss because they aren’t designed to handle the high impact velocities at close distances. On the flip side, small, frangible bullets like the ELD-M can work beautifully both up close and at long distances. One deer last year was DRT at 70m, the other deer was DRT at 500m (with a complete pass through both shoulders.

This is where I feel small calibers like the 22 Creedmoor, loaded with high-BC bullets like the 80- or 88-grain ELD-Ms, really excel. They give you that 20–800-yard versatility. The smaller, fast-expanding bullet performs well on game up close without over-damaging meat and still delivers reliable performance at distance, where it stays in the "zone" for expansion and energy transfer.

In honour of this thread I hit the range today with my 300WSM and 223. The WSM is 8.5lbs, unbraked, shooting 212 ELDX at 2850. I put 50 rounds on steel from 200-860m and energy on steel is awesome it THWACKS the plates even at 860M (950yards). The 223 *tinks* the same plate. But animals aren't steel plated and if the energy isn't stopped by steel is it wasted? The WSM was fun, but my shoulder felt it and comparatively, I could hit all the same plates with the 223 AND watch the vapor trail on it's journey to impact.

I appreciate the thought in this. Hunting is extremely dynamic. I have not trialed the newest bullet variations, and can be corrected.

Without dinking with the ELDM in person, I'm an internet quarterback, I don't need to worry about bullet function using performance correct bullets.

I just think that it is inherently crazy to depend too much on modern bullets constructed to expand to kill ethically. I've simply seen too many woonded critters with experiments.

Bullets I've personally seen fragment on ONE RIB going in: Rem core lokt (crazy stories on this one, never use), Berger VLD, Sierra Game King.

 

[tenth1]

Except that mass isn't part of BC. SD is, which has mass in it, but there's absolutely nothing that says a 160gr 7mm will drift less than a 140gr 7mm everything else equal. A 140gr bullet can have a higher BC than a 160gr bullet. Launched from the same case, the 160 will drift more at every distance.

The part I took issue with

That bolded part is empirically false.

You are both crazy to think that actually matters when hunting.

 

[z987k]

You are both crazy to think that actually matters when hunting.

That wind drift matters when hunting?

 

[BCsteve]

Thanks. No, I don't think 25 grains makes much difference. Was thinking more about the higher weight retention of the A-frame for deeper penetration at any angle.

I've shot two moose with my Whelen with 225gr TSX. I'm actually going with the 200gr TTSX next year. A little faster, better BC and it being a mono penetration should be similar.

 

[5811]

I wonder how you arrived at your opinion that if the bear was knocked over, the shooter would automatically get knocked over?

I wondered this myself and found a good calculation that explains:

It states that “back” energy is “forward” energy times ratio of m/M. Back energy is much smaller than “forward” energy due to the bullet and gases weighing less than the rifle and shooter. Couple that with the size and weight of the composition of the rifle, stock, the recoil dissipation of carbon fiber stocks etc...we don't get "hit" as hard as the animal taking the bullet


I didn't do the math, but based on what I can fine, this is how they calculated it.
Energy of forward going mass is:

and back going mass energy is:

From MS Principle we get:

If we substitute V in E with that, we get:

then

and

I saved the article a long time ago - I have always liked it - it says something similar but different. You decide what you wanna take from it

Ballistics of Modern Firearms - USC Viterbi School of Engineering

In the past two decades Americans have experienced a turbulent relationship with guns. We are compelled as a society to love them through popular culture and are taught to hate them through the acts of newsworthy criminals. Through all this, it is easy to view guns as a living force by which we...

illumin.usc.edu

From the article you cited:

Recall that the kinetic energy released when a bullet hits a target is less than the kinetic energy that the gun imparts on the bullet when it is fired – this is a necessary consequence of air resistance and the associated decrease in velocity. That means that if a bullet were to knock a bad guy off the ground and through a window, it would probably break the shooter’s shoulder while sending him flying backwards.

Please explain how you believe any of what you posted is a counter to what Thinhorn posted:

It bothers me when people think a bullet knocked an animal down, bullets only lose velocity and energy as they gain distance. If it had the energy to knock a bear over at 100yds, it would have the energy to knock the shooter over with the recoil.

I’ve shot bears that looked like they were knocked over, moose too, in reality they just fell down.

We don't get hit as hard as the animal taking the bullet, we get hit HARDER. There is no powder acceleration at the other end and the bullet itself only loses energy in flight.

 

[Scoutfan]

I have been hit by both ends. I know which one I prefer I prefer to be hit by!

 

[BRWNBR]

I hope this thread has a conclusion so I know what to do next time I go hunting.

 

[rickyw]

These threads never conclude. They just continue in a new thread with a different title

 

[Article 4]

From the article you cited:

Recall that the kinetic energy released when a bullet hits a target is less than the kinetic energy that the gun imparts on the bullet when it is fired – this is a necessary consequence of air resistance and the associated decrease in velocity. That means that if a bullet were to knock a bad guy off the ground and through a window, it would probably break the shooter’s shoulder while sending him flying backwards.

Please explain how you believe any of what you posted is a counter to what Thinhorn posted:



We don't get hit as hard as the animal taking the bullet, we get hit HARDER. There is no powder acceleration at the other end and the bullet itself only loses energy in flight.

From the article you cited:

Recall that the kinetic energy released when a bullet hits a target is less than the kinetic energy that the gun imparts on the bullet when it is fired – this is a necessary consequence of air resistance and the associated decrease in velocity. That means that if a bullet were to knock a bad guy off the ground and through a window, it would probably break the shooter’s shoulder while sending him flying backwards.

Please explain how you believe any of what you posted is a counter to what Thinhorn posted:



We don't get hit as hard as the animal taking the bullet, we get hit HARDER. There is no powder acceleration at the other end and the bullet itself only loses energy in flight.

This article is a pretty good read on it

Defense Technical Information Center

apps.dtic.mil

 

[Scoutfan]

I shared my own experience trying out small calibers this year and had the opportunity to take a deer very close range that resulted in DRT (btw that was off my knee and I was able to watch the deer drop through my scope) as well as a deer at longer range 500M (550yards) that was also DRT through both shoulders with an exit. That seems quite versatile? It's also a tiny sample size, but that's why I appreciate this forum and all the shared experiences to get a better idea of what has been working for people.

Yes that seems versatile and pretty much exactly what I am looking for in performance from my fast twist 22-250 ( soon to be ai).I plan on it being my go to West TX rifle.
I guess we might have a little different views on versatile though. I can do everything you just described with my 30/06ai(except spot a 50 yard shot through my scope). I also can legally hunt more states ,have more penetration for odd angle shots while timber hunting, and feel much more comfortable hunting in grizzly country. I also have a lot more barrel life.
The biggest downside of course is more recoil and less ability to spot my shots.
Nothing is perfect for every situation, it's just a matter of finding what works best for you.
As much as I like 30/06 and 300wm for their versatility I don't recommend them nearly as much as I recommend a 223 and a 6.5 creedmoore.

 

[j3h8]

Before "magnum" there was "express". It is marketing jargon, plain and simple.

Yes, more speed is a good thing. Yes, more energy is a good thing. Having both of these translates to an excellent thing. Larger bullets with more energy only matter if you are dumping more into your game than the smaller caliber. Would I rather have a 338 win mag shooting a 250g bullet that punches all the way through a broadside animal and still carries half it's energy into the dirt and the animal has to be blood trailed? Or a 62g 223 that dumps all of its energy into the animal and the bullet is found just under the skin on the opposite side but the critter dropped in its tracks. Guess it doesn't matter if dead is dead, right?

Bullet construction is far more important than size of you weine... cartridge.

 

[5811]

This article is a pretty good read on it

Defense Technical Information Center

apps.dtic.mil

I see what you are doing. Carry on.

 

[DangerRanger]

I tell you what I see a BOAL at 700 and I don’t want some measly 223 I want my buddy a hill over to hear my bullet go……

 

[JPW13]

Yes that seems versatile and pretty much exactly what I am looking for in performance from my fast twist 22-250 ( soon to be ai).I plan on it being my go to West TX rifle.
I guess we might have a little different views on versatile though. I can do everything you just described with my 30/06ai(except spot a 50 yard shot through my scope). I also can legally hunt more states ,have more penetration for odd angle shots while timber hunting, and feel much more comfortable hunting in grizzly country. I also have a lot more barrel life.
The biggest downside of course is more recoil and less ability to spot my shots.
Nothing is perfect for every situation, it's just a matter of finding what works best for you.
As much as I like 30/06 and 300wm for their versatility I don't recommend them nearly as much as I recommend a 223 and a 6.5 creedmoore.

I’m with you—I love my .30-06 too. It’s a classic for a reason and has proven itself time and again as a versatile option for everything from deer to elk. But as much as I enjoy it, I have to admit that, empirically, it’s not necessarily better than lower-recoiling options. In fact, with all the data showing effective kills with smaller calibers and the well-documented downsides of recoil (accuracy, follow-up shots, and shooter fatigue), it might actually be worse in certain situations. But better and worse are a scale and two things can both be effective even excellent, despite one being "better".
That said, I’ll concede that when it comes to grizzly country or an attacking bear scenario, the .30-06 still feels like the better choice. Logically, I know that small bullets can and do kill big bears—I'd suspect even in high-pressure situations—but something about having a "bigger stick" feels safer when shot placement might be compromised in the chaos. Maybe it’s the psychological comfort of knowing the .30-06 can handle odd-angle shots and still get the job done?
But at the end of the day, the data backs the idea that smaller, modern calibers are just as effective—probably even in a panic scenario. For me, it’s more about finding the balance between what I’m confident shooting and what’s best for the situation. And as much as I love the .30-06, I can’t argue against the practicality and efficiency of smaller calibers for most hunting scenarios. Still, there’s something reassuring (although likely illogical) about having the option to bring out the ’06.

 

[BRWNBR]

Maybe we should figure out how small of a hole we can put in a heart or lungs that doesn’t kill the animal then build from there?