Idaho Bonus point system

[awcopeland]

The NRs complaining about the current NR otc tag system may just be what leads to points across the board in Idaho. NRs aren’t going to accept buying licenses and/or apps without anything in return on unsuccessful apps. Also, IDFG only allows a max of 4 hunters on a group application. With coordination, a group of 6-10+ NRs can all get the same otc tags with the current system.

My personal opinion is that the current system, as is, is great.

I don’t agree that NRs won’t accept “buying licenses and not apps without anything return”. Look at NM for example: no points, totally random, pay everything up front, ability to apply as a party for most species, no refunds if you do draw, and we have plenty of NRs trying to draw down here. Listen to just about any Instagram/YouTube personality and NM is in their application strategy. But maybe we’re saying the same thing different ways and I’m misinterpreting you??

Also, this scenario where 6-10 NRs can hunt OTC tags, I’m assuming that’s for non antlered critters, or are that many off based with Idaho’s current system? I frankly don’t pay too much attention to it personally due to logistics.

 

[BRTreedogs]

We fill hanging trees every year in our elk camps. When we’re serious about it, we fill 50% (sometimes more) of our elk tags and everyone who hunts has an opportunity over a week.


We all help on oil or great tags, but otc or otc adjacent tags only the tag holders go typically.

You can’t compare the success of a few to the average.
If you look at the stats of the average that means you’re camp was the success and nobody else shot anything.

Most people eat tag soup, most don’t make it to day 4 and maybe a tenth of a percent will go back in after the first elk is packed out.

 

[IdahoBeav]

They'll keep doing it too. Demand will never go down regardless if a few thousand quit applying.

That doesn’t mean there won’t be change. The current NR OTC system is viewed unfavorably by what seems to be the majority, but it still sells out, and it appears it will be changing due to complaints.

 

[IdahoBeav]

I don’t agree that NRs won’t accept “buying licenses and not apps without anything return”. Look at NM for example: no points, totally random, pay everything up front, ability to apply as a party for most species, no refunds if you do draw, and we have plenty of NRs trying to draw down here. Listen to just about any Instagram/YouTube personality and NM is in their application strategy. But maybe we’re saying the same thing different ways and I’m misinterpreting you??

Also, this scenario where 6-10 NRs can hunt OTC tags, I’m assuming that’s for non antlered critters, or are that many off based with Idaho’s current system? I frankly don’t pay too much attention to it personally due to logistics.

How many allocated NR deer and elk tags does NM offer each year? Were these recently OTC? I’m not very familiar with NM.

I’ll reiterate that I don’t want a points system in Idaho, and with a new NR “OTC” draw and no points, I believe the tags will still sell out. However, there will be a very loud group claiming that it isn’t fair that year-after-year they apply and get nothing. There have been some significant changes in recent years as a result of people screeching at IDFG.

The 6-10+ NR group hunts with the current system would be antlered, but it takes homework, coordination, and effort to get the tags. I wouldn’t say that those griping about the NR system are off base, but they do only wish to put in minimal effort in obtaining tags.

 

[idahodave]

Or, hear me out, are smart enough to actually figure it out and learn how to play the game.

If you think I don’t understand the game…you’re sorely mistaken. I worked for IDFG for a period of time and had a front row seat to some REALLY detailed discussions about this.

Another poster said it best…point systems only benefit those on the ground floor (minimally) and those seeking mediocre tags. Statistically speaking, most will draw that mediocre tag over time anyway.

I’m not interested in mortgaging my son’s future hunting opportunities so you can be “guaranteed” a mediocre tag in the next 5-10 years. Nor am I interested in spending a bunch of money unnecessarily in the hopes I can keep up with your desire to do the same.

Hard pass friend…and thankfully almost everyone interested in this topic agrees with me…or do you think we all just need to “learn to play the game” that you think you have figured out?

Dave

 

[Idahohillboy]

Instead of a bonus point system just increase draw prices to 200.00 a person on like 15 premium units per species. This would stop everyone from putting their whole family in at 5.00 a pop. Then make people who draw sit out 3 years instead of just 1. Speaking as a guy who has drawn one elk tag as rez then non rez n back to rez in 25 years of applying. People would still have other draw units and the general tags when they have to sit out.

 

[WRO]

If you think I don’t understand the game…you’re sorely mistaken. I worked for IDFG for a period of time and had a front row seat to some REALLY detailed discussions about this.

Another poster said it best…point systems only benefit those on the ground floor (minimally) and those seeking mediocre tags. Statistically speaking, most will draw that mediocre tag over time anyway.

I’m not interested in mortgaging my son’s future hunting opportunities so you can be “guaranteed” a mediocre tag in the next 5-10 years. Nor am I interested in spending a bunch of money unnecessarily in the hopes I can keep up with your desire to do the same.

Hard pass friend…and thankfully almost everyone interested in this topic agrees with me…or do you think we all just need to “learn to play the game” that you think you have figured out?

Dave

I draw tags in a couple states a year on average, I think I have a pretty good idea how each system works and use them successfully.

Idfg has a very interesting management system which basically is every excess animal not harvested is a waste of the resource.

 

[idelkslayer]

Instead of a bonus point system just increase draw prices to 200.00 a person on like 15 premium units per species. This would stop everyone from putting their whole family in at 5.00 a pop. Then make people who draw sit out 3 years instead of just 1. Speaking as a guy who has drawn one elk tag as rez then non rez n back to rez in 25 years of applying. People would still have other draw units and the general tags when they have to sit out.

Wyoming basically does that with the "Special" draw. It doesn't seem to reduce demand. And even if it did, it would push more applicants tot he remaining controlled hunt units and drive down drawing odds there. Increased wait times could give drawing odds a bump but it's hard to say how much. In a hunt with 20% drawing odds a three year wait time could theoretically increase the drawing odds by up to 13% (Just eliminate two years of successful applicants or 40% of applicants and check the odds again). In a hunt with 10% drawing odds it would only increase drawing odds by 3%. Is that enough to matter? I'm a firm maybe.

What baffles me is the amount of hunters who draw a controlled hunt tag and then don't even go on the hunt. It would be nearly impossible to enforce any kind of penalty on those tag wasters because they could just go online on their hunter report and say they hunted to avoid the penalty.

 

[awcopeland]

How many allocated NR deer and elk tags does NM offer each year? Were these recently OTC? I’m not very familiar with NM.

I’ll reiterate that I don’t want a points system in Idaho, and with a new NR “OTC” draw and no points, I believe the tags will still sell out. However, there will be a very loud group claiming that it isn’t fair that year-after-year they apply and get nothing. There have been some significant changes in recent years as a result of people screeching at IDFG.

The 6-10+ NR group hunts with the current system would be antlered, but it takes homework, coordination, and effort to get the tags. I wouldn’t say that those griping about the NR system are off base, but they do only wish to put in minimal effort in obtaining tags.

@IdahoBeav I had to look it up in the draw odds report that NMDGF releases each year. Last year in the NR pool alone, they issued 2369 deer tags through draw and 917 elk tags through the draw. New Mexico has an interesting way off going about OTC tags. For deer you can get OTC private land tags in most units (I think the unit 2 might be an exception, but don't quote me on that, I try to hunt close to home or places that interest me).

For elk, NM doesn't allow NRs to apply for anterless only elk tags through the draw. However, they have a system called EPLUS (Elk Private Land Use System) where private land owners can enter into an agreement with the Game & Fish Dept. They can either go into as a "Unit Wide" ranch or a "Ranch Only". Meaning that, whatever land owner tags that they received (based off an algorithm of how many habitat acres they own), those tags give access to other Unit Wide Ranches as well as any public ground in that GMU, or the tags can only be used to hunt the Ranch that was given the tags (generally, only really large ranches do this). Even though the ranch can sell tags for whatever the market is will to pay, the state only gets the NR's license fee ~$160 IIRC.

Outside of the primary elk management zones, you can get elk tags OTC, but these areas are generally largely private and generally don't hold many/any elk on a regular basis. Believe it or not, GMU 34 was proposed a few years back to go to elk management zone 2.

I don't think any western state has a perfect system, but from what I understand, I like the hybrid system that ID has. I just think their OTC stuff needs to be revamped. A random draw similar to what NM has is the easy button IMO. It avoids points and everyone has a chance, while avoiding overcrowding issues for the most part. I don't like NM's EPLUS system, but I'm not sure of a better way that doesn't come with its own issues.

Similarly, I don't like the dedicated allocation to those applying with outfitters. It's government welfare IMO. I'd be content with something along the lines of an 88/12 split for Resident/Non-Resident split. I think that could offset having to raise resident fees (NM is a pretty poor state and it's relatively inexpensive by today's standards for NR's).

 

[Dioni A]

I draw tags in a couple states a year on average, I think I have a pretty good idea how each system works and use them successfully.

Idfg has a very interesting management system which basically is every excess animal not harvested is a waste of the resource.

I don't know where your getting your information but I've seen you propose some comically false narratives on this and other topics.

I've spent hours on the phone and in person talking to multiple different idfg biologists specifically about mule deer management and none of them have ever said or eluded to anything like that.

If the point you were trying to make is that they should stockpile deer so that a small percentage of those can get older, there's plenty of good information outlining the costs for that small benefit. There's already areas managed for that In Idaho and in other states that have the point systems your fond of.

Why rewrite the whole system. We already have phenomenal OTC hunting available to us every year and draw units that run the entire quality spectrum.

 

[WRO]

I don't know where your getting your information but I've seen you propose some comically false narratives on this and other topics.

I've spent hours on the phone and in person talking to multiple different idfg biologists specifically about mule deer management and none of them have ever said or eluded to anything like that.

If the point you were trying to make is that they should stockpile deer so that a small percentage of those can get older, there's plenty of good information outlining the costs for that small benefit. There's already areas managed for that In Idaho and in other states that have the point systems your fond of.

Why rewrite the whole system. We already have phenomenal OTC hunting available to us every year and draw units that run the entire quality spectrum.

Selling tags funds game departments, IDFG is no different.

I don’t think every unit needs to be “stockpiled” but it’d be nice to see some more escapement.

I feel the same way about your assertion that we have “phoenomal” otc hunting that you feel about some of my opinions. There’s enough studies out there that anyone (myself included) can curate them to match their narratives.

As population increases and winter range continues to be developed, it’s not going to get better.

 

[WeiserBucks]

As population increases and winter range continues to be developed, it’s not going to get better.

A point system isn't going stop that from happening.

 

[WRO]

A point system isn't going stop that from happening.

Agreed..

It’ll be interesting to see how it’s handled, the current plans to go to primitive weapons is going to just put more pressure on other units which will just continue the spiral. At some point they’ll have to go to draw or a Capped FCFS system across much of the state, at which point a draw system change becomes a different topic.

 

[Grundy53]

I hope Idaho never goes to points...

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[WeiserBucks]

Agreed..

It’ll be interesting to see how it’s handled, the current plans to go to primitive weapons is going to just put more pressure on other units which will just continue the spiral. At some point they’ll have to go to draw or a Capped FCFS system across much of the state, at which point a draw system change becomes a different topic.

Since this thread is about controlled hunts, there's already a draw system in place and the overwhelming majority don't want to change it.

 

[Dioni A]

Selling tags funds game departments, IDFG is no different.

I don’t think every unit needs to be “stockpiled” but it’d be nice to see some more escapement.

I feel the same way about your assertion that we have “phoenomal” otc hunting that you feel about some of my opinions. There’s enough studies out there that anyone (myself included) can curate them to match their narratives.

As population increases and winter range continues to be developed, it’s not going to get better.

what metric are you going off of to assert that we don’t have phenomenal Hunting?

i’ll share mine. I can hunt multiple buck tags every year across most of the state and on average have opportunity at harvesting bucks 180 or better. Yes there's down years but over the last more than a decade my best Idaho buck from each year averages over 180.

That's available to every resident of the state of Idaho! People may not be willing to put the work in to take advantage of it, but it’s there.

What you're proposing kills that opportunity.

 

[WRO]

what metric are you going off of to assert that we don’t have phenomenal Hunting?

i’ll share mine. I can hunt multiple buck tags every year across most of the state and on average have opportunity at harvesting bucks 180 or better. Yes there's down years but over the last more than a decade my best Idaho buck from each year averages over 180.

That's available to every resident of the state of Idaho! People may not be willing to put the work in to take advantage of it, but it’s there.

What you're proposing kills that opportunity.

You’ve stated that you only focus on mule deer and you work hard at, more power to you.

I’ve killed a pile of Blacktails OTC between 130-150, but everyone of those deer I had 20+ days in. That’s not phenomenal, it’s just hard work.

I’ve got probably 45 days so far hunting OTC in Idaho and we’ve killed one deer that’s worthy of a bullet, the rest were just dinks for first time hunters. I can count the number of bucks over 4 I’ve seen on one hand OTC season or not. There’s people everywhere, whether it’s a weekday or weekend.

Lots of people are happy to shoot dinks and a great hunt is hanging a string of 1.5 year old meat bucks with 17 camps in a 5 mile circle, or spending 30 days to kill the biggest deer you can find, then its phenomal by those standards.

If you just want a quality hunt, where you don’t see people everywhere you go, even 5 miles back, and a few more mature bucks on the landscape I have not found that nor has my group found that. People I hunt with who’re life long residents share similar sentiments with regards to crowding and the decline in quality.

It’s an opportunity, in my opinion, it’s not phenomenal.

 

[willfrye027]

You’ve stated that you only focus on mule deer and you work hard at, more power to you.

I’ve killed a pile of Blacktails OTC between 130-150, but everyone of those deer I had 20+ days in. That’s not phenomenal, it’s just hard work.

I’ve got probably 45 days so far hunting OTC in Idaho and we’ve killed one deer that’s worthy of a bullet, the rest were just dinks for first time hunters. I can count the number of bucks over 4 I’ve seen on one hand OTC season or not. There’s people everywhere, whether it’s a weekday or weekend.

Lots of people are happy to shoot dinks and a great hunt is hanging a string of 1.5 year old meat bucks with 17 camps in a 5 mile circle, or spending 30 days to kill the biggest deer you can find, then its phenomal by those standards.

If you just want a quality hunt, where you don’t see people everywhere you go, even 5 miles back, and a few more mature bucks on the landscape I have not found that nor has my group found that. People I hunt with who’re life long residents share similar sentiments with regards to crowding and the decline in quality.

It’s an opportunity, in my opinion, it’s not phenomenal.

Do you think a point system is going to change your success on older age class animals?

Maybe your hunting tactics are not well suited to finding big mule deer, or maybe your expectations are unrealistic. What worked in the 80s and 90s is probably not going to work in 2025.

I hunt a lot of different states with a variety of point systems. Idaho OTC is a good hunt. There are good bucks to be had. Hunted a brand new unit last year and we did just fine..zero crowding issues, handful of nice bucks..no crazy backcountry needed.

Idaho does not need to change a single thing as far as I’m concerned.

 

[Grundy53]

You’ve stated that you only focus on mule deer and you work hard at, more power to you.

I’ve killed a pile of Blacktails OTC between 130-150, but everyone of those deer I had 20+ days in. That’s not phenomenal, it’s just hard work.

I’ve got probably 45 days so far hunting OTC in Idaho and we’ve killed one deer that’s worthy of a bullet, the rest were just dinks for first time hunters. I can count the number of bucks over 4 I’ve seen on one hand OTC season or not. There’s people everywhere, whether it’s a weekday or weekend.

Lots of people are happy to shoot dinks and a great hunt is hanging a string of 1.5 year old meat bucks with 17 camps in a 5 mile circle, or spending 30 days to kill the biggest deer you can find, then its phenomal by those standards.

If you just want a quality hunt, where you don’t see people everywhere you go, even 5 miles back, and a few more mature bucks on the landscape I have not found that nor has my group found that. People I hunt with who’re life long residents share similar sentiments with regards to crowding and the decline in quality.

It’s an opportunity, in my opinion, it’s not phenomenal.

Perhaps if you don't like the hunting hunt somewhere else. You don't need to ruin it for people who do enjoy it.

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[Dioni A]

If you just want a quality hunt, where you don’t see people everywhere you go, even 5 miles back, and a few more mature bucks on the landscape I have not found that nor has my group found that. People I hunt with who’re life long residents share similar sentiments with regards to crowding and the decline in quality.

This exists in plenty of places! I've gone entire seasons without runninh into more than a couple hunters. You’re just not gonna find it in all of the popular places. You won't in draw units either. Every time I hear arguments like this it has an overwhelmingly common undertone. People want what they want and they want it to come easily. That’s not the world we live in. Big bucks are scarce almost everywhere regardless of management strategy.