I dont understand

[Deadfall]

Have a rancher buddy wants some remodel stuff done. Rode around with him looking at a couple projects yesterday, what should have taken a couple hours ended up being all day. We got to talking about the disconnect.

Got someone else's perspective of stuff.
I'm a OTC guy. 44 yrs old and this is first year I put in for a permit. Just a deer, point is I don't know much about permitting system. He brought up some things I've been researching.

His unit. They give out 400 bow tags good for multiple units. Only 100 rifle tags. Under general column for that unit it has season dates, but mention nothing about special drawing. The 100 tag permit is good for bow or rifle. The 400 tag permit is good only bow. Is this unit open to general tag? Still figuring that out.

His complaint is that he owns a good size chunk and winters elk, and alot of elk. He has not drawn a tag in 4 years and hasn't been able to hunt his own property. However, fr several years now the same group of archers stop and ask for permission. To hunt his place. His POV is why should he let people hunt his place when he can't hunt it. He's the one feeding them and fixing fences and paying taxes. Which I think is fair statement.

His other complaint is guys trespass to get to a little strip of BLM on top of a mountain, then shoot elk on him and want to pack it out through his place.

He rattled off piles of situations involving lazy hunters and entitled hunters. I talked to the game warden today and stories like that are pretty standard.

We also talked about poopy landowners, and outfitters and so on. Why I won't hunt on private land.

So what I don't understand...
1. FWP regulations.
2. Entitlement
3. Greed
4. How come the good stuff/interactions is never talked about. Only rotten interactions.

Mindless late night rambling.

What I took away from our conversation. All sides need to do and be better.

Also come up with some ideas we are going to start bouncing off fancy people.

He did say he's not in favor of something like 505. His reasoning surprised me alittle. And is sound I think. 2 points he had.
1. Owning 640 acres doesn't mean anything if wildlife is there they would be blown off in a day or 2.

 

[5MilesBack]

4. How come the good stuff/interactions is never talked about.

Probably because the "good stuff" doesn't need fixing. Those are what they are, the focus is on problem areas......the ones that need attention.

 

[bsnedeker]

Yeah man, I know a few ranchers and it just blows my mind that most hunters don't seem to give any thought to the position they are in. They have elk crushing their haystacks and pastures that they need to feed their livestock over the winter. Hunters crush public lands so the elk have learned to move to private for food and sanctuary.

So hunters say, well you should just let everyone onto the land that you and your family have spent their entire lives building and maintaining. They end up with their roads torn up because people just cruise through regardless of conditions, they end up with bullet holes in their outbuildings, trash all over the place, gut piles attracting bears and wolves.

It is a tough spot to be in for them. I wish more people could have some empathy and not just default to "greedy landowner" mentality.

 

[BRTreedogs]

And in Oregon the ranchers are given thousands of tags and murder tons of cows on the winter range. They can sell the hunt.
They harbor the elk on purpose because they can sell it.
And still whine and ask for money from the state.
And still won't let the public on.
They have so much cake they can't eat it all but God forbid you ask for a crumb.

There is just no really correct answer.
Maybe force them off there land wako style and give it back to feds so everyone can access it???

 

[Lawnboi]

All sides do need to get better. Period. Greed is going to turn hunting in the US into a big texas.

So this land owner is upset that he pays for land and dosnt get a tag every year. I get it. But the state controls th e animals. I personally don’t feel entitled to a tag on federal because I pay federal taxes.... but that’s an argument your going to get. I seem to remember you thought it was funny that people were upset over outfitter welfare but not the other way around? Did you laugh in his face when he complained about not getting tags for land he pays taxes on while giving them to others?

Is his unit a trophy unit or are tags limited because of herd goals? I’m personally anti trophy unit but pro limiting for the herd if needed.

Dosnt Montana have a program for hunters to access private land, limited in entry and with rules set forth by the landowner? Man a program like that would be nice wouldn’t it, I’d bet he’d even get a kick back for such program.

Assure him trespassing for many reasons in a problem in all parts of the country. Disrespectful people everywhere. That’s not changing anytime soon. Fortunately I like to think most guys like to follow the rules.

Sounds like the rancher needs a bow.
Or maybe he should just move to a spot he can get a tag yearly. I mean that’s a big argument given to guys who would like to hunt elk every year?

Don’t take the above as an attack toward you.... simply a conversation about some major problems that are facing hunting.

But I’m just the bad guy. Just a blue collar NR hunter who would kill to have the opportunity to hunt a decent piece of private land. I’d follow the rules, come out for a week in the summer to help, buy him a bottle of his drink of choice and make him dinner. That’s not how it is though, if I don’t have $5000 I’m just an annoyance.

 

[CorbLand]

Yeah man, I know a few ranchers and it just blows my mind that most hunters don't seem to give any thought to the position they are in. They have elk crushing their haystacks and pastures that they need to feed their livestock over the winter. Hunters crush public lands so the elk have learned to move to private for food and sanctuary.

So hunters say, well you should just let everyone onto the land that you and your family have spent their entire lives building and maintaining. They end up with their roads torn up because people just cruise through regardless of conditions, they end up with bullet holes in their outbuildings, trash all over the place, gut piles attracting bears and wolves.

It is a tough spot to be in for them. I wish more people could have some empathy and not just default to "greedy landowner" mentality.

Unfortunately, this goes both ways. I talked to a landowner here that his family has maybe 20 acres that he keeps two horses on. He gets 2-3 depredation elk tags a year because the elk get into his stack of hay. The DNR here offered to pay for materials for him to build a little shed to house his 10-15 bales of hay in. He told them no because he likes getting the dep tags. Complains that he cant shoot bulls on dep tags and thinks he should be able to hunt the entire unit on those tags instead of just his land.

I had a landowner that marked the state land next to his property as private and try kicking me off it one day.

Landowners aint any less greedy than any one else. I have a lot of respect for private land and know tons of farmers and ranchers that have 10000 acres plus. They whine just like everyone else.

 

[Deadfall]

See, this is my point. Everyone has taken such a line in the sand stance. No one is willing to see the other side. Every group, faction or whatever you cal it has shitheads.

Every group also has stand up folks. Bring that up and noone wants to hear it. All anyone wants to talk about is how mistreated they are.

Until we can find a way to soften resentments, stop pointing fingers,, there no way everyone can sit and find solutions.

Hitting the jerks harder in the pocket book and suspension of privileges?

Letting landowner have a couple tags. Perhaps non sellable, perhaps do what they wish.

More game wardens?

Personally I think policing ourselves is best. There's no better pressure then peer pressure.

Offering to trade work for hunting. Which there would have to be some legislation protecting landowners in case someone got hurt. Also to protect the individual.

Can't re build burnt bridges overnight. They longer we wait the long it takes to complete.

I think the first step is to start trying to see the other side.

Maybe I'm naive too

 

[bsnedeker]

All sides do need to get better. Period. Greed is going to turn hunting in the US into a big texas.

So this land owner is upset that he pays for land and dosnt get a tag every year. I get it. But the state controls th e animals. I personally don’t feel entitled to a tag on federal because I pay federal taxes.... but that’s an argument your going to get. I seem to remember you thought it was funny that people were upset over outfitter welfare but not the other way around? Did you laugh in his face when he complained about not getting tags for land he pays taxes on while giving them to others?

Is his unit a trophy unit or are tags limited because of herd goals? I’m personally anti trophy unit but pro limiting for the herd if needed.

Dosnt Montana have a program for hunters to access private land, limited in entry and with rules set forth by the landowner? Man a program like that would be nice wouldn’t it, I’d bet he’d even get a kick back for such program.

Assure him trespassing for many reasons in a problem in all parts of the country. Disrespectful people everywhere. That’s not changing anytime soon. Fortunately I like to think most guys like to follow the rules.

Sounds like the rancher needs a bow.
Or maybe he should just move to a spot he can get a tag yearly. I mean that’s a big argument given to guys who would like to hunt elk every year?

Don’t take the above as an attack toward you.... simply a conversation about some.

But I’m just the bad guy. Just a blue collar NR hunter who would kill to have the opportunity to hunt a decent piece of private land. I’d follow the rules, come out for a week in the summer to help, buy him a bottle of his drink of choice and make him dinner. That’s not how it is though, if I don’t have $5000 I’m just an annoyance.

Come out here during calving season and help out. Come fix some fences. A bottle of whiskey is nice, but if you want a rancher to trust you then you need to put some work in. That's what most locals that get permission on private do.

 

[Lawnboi]

Come out here during calving season and help out. Come fix some fences. A bottle of whiskey is nice, but if you want a rancher to trust you then you need to put some work in. That's what most locals that get permission on private do.

I would value that opportunity. I’d have to find it first though. I’d even burn a week of vacation.

I can’t even find opportunity like that locally anymore. It’s all about the almighty dollar.

 

[CorbLand]

See, this is my point. Everyone has taken such a line in the sand stance. No one is willing to see the other side. Every group, faction or whatever you cal it has shitheads.

Every group also has stand up folks. Bring that up and noone wants to hear it. All anyone wants to talk about is how mistreated they are.

Until we can find a way to soften resentments, stop pointing fingers,, there no way everyone can sit and find solutions.

Hitting the jerks harder in the pocket book and suspension of privileges?

Letting landowner have a couple tags. Perhaps non sellable, perhaps do what they wish.

More game wardens?

Personally I think policing ourselves is best. There's no better pressure then peer pressure.

Offering to trade work for hunting. Which there would have to be some legislation protecting landowners in case someone got hurt. Also to protect the individual.

Can't re build burnt bridges overnight. They longer we wait the long it takes to complete.

I think the first step is to start trying to see the other side.

Maybe I'm naive too

I have had some good experiences with landowners but the bad severely out weighs the good. Back before I had OnX I was out upland hunting. I thought I was on state land and didn't realize that a guy owned a cut out into the state land and you had to skirt it about a mile or so to the West. He asked me if I knew where I was and I said, yea state land. He explained the boundary to me, I apologized and asked what the fastest way to get off his land was? He told me to just head back the way I came and no worries. We chatted for a bit, super nice guy and off I went.

 

[Deadfall]

All sides do need to get better. Period. Greed is going to turn hunting in the US into a big texas.

So this land owner is upset that he pays for land and dosnt get a tag every year. I get it. But the state controls th e animals. I personally don’t feel entitled to a tag on federal because I pay federal taxes.... but that’s an argument your going to get. I seem to remember you thought it was funny that people were upset over outfitter welfare but not the other way around? Did you laugh in his face when he complained about not getting tags for land he pays taxes on while giving them to others?

Is his unit a trophy unit or are tags limited because of herd goals? I’m personally anti trophy unit but pro limiting for the herd if needed.

Dosnt Montana have a program for hunters to access private land, limited in entry and with rules set forth by the landowner? Man a program like that would be nice wouldn’t it, I’d bet he’d even get a kick back for such program.

Assure him trespassing for many reasons in a problem in all parts of the country. Disrespectful people everywhere. That’s not changing anytime soon. Fortunately I like to think most guys like to follow the rules.

Sounds like the rancher needs a bow.
Or maybe he should just move to a spot he can get a tag yearly. I mean that’s a big argument given to guys who would like to hunt elk every year?

Don’t take the above as an attack toward you.... simply a conversation about some major problems that are facing hunting.

But I’m just the bad guy. Just a blue collar NR hunter who would kill to have the opportunity to hunt a decent piece of private land. I’d follow the rules, come out for a week in the summer to help, buy him a bottle of his drink of choice and make him dinner. That’s not how it is though, if I don’t have $5000 I’m just an annoyance.

We discussed all that in great detail. Landowners play a big roll in wildlife management. In a case like this gut that has a good size outfit, he spends a lot of money dealing with wildlife. Part of owning and working land like that for sure.
No I did not laugh in his face. He doesn't think landowners having a bunch of tags and charging large sums of money for hunting is right either.

I agree that landowners who winter lots of wildlife should get A tag, maybe 2 every year.

FWP definitely has some work to do on rules. Everyone agrees on that.

This particular rancher started out with nothing. Raised his family in a run down trailer house. Now in his late 60s has built a nice ranch. Just wants to be able to hunt his own place. Can't blame him. That's not welfare....I believe that's called fair....

If hunters would start being midly respectful this guy would let people on.

He does not want any part of BLM because TO MANY hunters have no respect.

Couple years ago he let some deer hunters on and they shot a pivot. 6000 bucks he's out. Noone would fess up, offer to fix it or even to help fix it.

We also went into great detail about folks like Galt. He sees that side of things as well.

He is fairly well connected to government types. Anyway he made some phone calls yesterday about some of tge things we talked about. Opposing 505. Governor nominees for FWP commission. Which he isn't in favor of either.

As for diy guts helping its actricky deal because of liability issues. He does favor that though.

Idk why you think you a bad guy. I'm a blue collar resident hunter. (Actually probably more of brown collar with all the shit I eat)..lol...

I'm not about to into my viewpoint about outfitters.

I also don't think the problems are all that bug. Find a way to open dialog with differing viewpoints. Not carry a victim mentality, or a passive aggressive attitude and with some communication anything is possible.
Speaking to that point, some of phone calls he's making is to start ball rolling on some ideas we have. Who knows where it leads.

 

[Deadfall]

I have had some good experiences with landowners but the bad severely out weighs the good. Back before I had OnX I was out upland hunting. I thought I was on state land and didn't realize that a guy owned a cut out into the state land and you had to skirt it about a mile or so to the West. He asked me if I knew where I was and I said, yea state land. He explained the boundary to me, I apologized and asked what the fastest way to get off his land was? He told me to just head back the way I came and no worries. We chatted for a bit, super nice guy and off I went.

That's how it should be.

 

[Deadfall]

I would value that opportunity. I’d have to find it first though. I’d even burn a week of vacation.

I can’t even find opportunity like that locally anymore. It’s all about the almighty dollar.

I believe that trend can be curbed. Going to take work though.

 

[Deadfall]

I would value that opportunity. I’d have to find it first though. I’d even burn a week of vacation.

I can’t even find opportunity like that locally anymore. It’s all about the almighty dollar.

Changing some FWP rules would help.

 

[Lawnboi]

See, this is my point. Everyone has taken such a line in the sand stance. No one is willing to see the other side. Every group, faction or whatever you cal it has shitheads.

Every group also has stand up folks. Bring that up and noone wants to hear it. All anyone wants to talk about is how mistreated they are.

Until we can find a way to soften resentments, stop pointing fingers,, there no way everyone can sit and find solutions.

Hitting the jerks harder in the pocket book and suspension of privileges?

Letting landowner have a couple tags. Perhaps non sellable, perhaps do what they wish.

More game wardens?

Personally I think policing ourselves is best. There's no better pressure then peer pressure.

Offering to trade work for hunting. Which there would have to be some legislation protecting landowners in case someone got hurt. Also to protect the individual.

Can't re build burnt bridges overnight. They longer we wait the long it takes to complete.

I think the first step is to start trying to see the other side.

Maybe I'm naive too

Exactly right.

Not trying to be confrontational because these are problems we have to deal with. Opportunity is dwindling everywhere.

That said I don’t think giving more tags to landowners just because they have animals on their land is the answer either. Sounds like the rancher your speaking about wants the tag for a completely just reason though.

 

[CorbLand]

That's how it should be.

I agree. It was an honest mistake on my part and I thanked him for not having me fined. I was a broke ass college student at the time and that would have sent me in the hole big time. He laughed when I told him that and said something to the effect of "there are bigger tragedies in the world than some kid walking on my land."

I dont have a big problem with landowners getting tags but the thing that I really hate is that it becomes a source of income for them and then they want more and more. Utah use to allow baiting and a bunch of land owners would bait the crap out of their land to pull animals off the public so they could sell the land owner tags for 10,000. The CWMU tags here in Utah are kind of a joke and every year they advocate for more and more tags but never want to increase the public tags on the CWMU.

Land owners do a lot for wildlife and provide a lot of wintering ground for them. Dont get me wrong, I understand that they front a lot of "cost" due to wildlife but they aint all doing it because they like animals.

 

[Deadfall]

Someone has to start the ball rolling in different direction. We as DIY are the biggest group, so why not us be the ones to take some initiative and change how we roll. Start plocing ourselves.

When out hunting, swing in to a place and say hi. Don't ask to hunt just introduce ourselves, maybe drop a pie and a phone number. Offer help if they need any and go away.

For dang sure start turning our people when they misbehave.

Through a pair of fence pliers in your hunting truck with a hammer a staples. When messing around just stop and fix alittle fence if it needs. Maybe rancher sees you and asks what your doing, maybe he don't. Good carma is easy to come by.

If their house needs painted and you're a painter maybe offer to paint it.

 

[gbflyer]

I had an old neighbor when I was a kid who was a respected, real cow man, not a gentleman rancher with a quarter section he visited from town once a year. He had mountain and low country property. He just asked people to shut the gate. He’d tell you where he was seeing elk. You could camp and hunt on his land no problem, didn’t even have to ask. No one left much of a mess, he was around enough that it just didn’t happen. The more elk that were taken the more feed was left for his cattle was his theory. Not like a lot of ranchers who bitch about the elk, take the money, and keep the gate locked. He also let us pheasant hunt on the low stuff. He sold out to an AZ couple, nice folks. They also left it open for a number of years. Then some d-bag cowboy who worked for them bullshitted them into locking it so he could guide (illegally) on it. He finally got his but it took years...hard to enforce the rules behind a locked gate. More years went by, it’s changed hands again, the new folks like to post surrounding public property and lead you to believe they can close access on a public road. The definition of the “cut above” attitude. They’ve figured out the elk are a money machine because it’s an OTC area and the same folks lease it every year.

So, there’s one for the greed column, on both sides.

 

[BBob]

Come out here during calving season and help out. Come fix some fences. A bottle of whiskey is nice, but if you want a rancher to trust you then you need to put some work in. That's what most locals that get permission on private do.

This^^^ If you ever find a rancher that lets you in offer to help and if they give you that opportunity definitely go help. We've made some good friends over the years doing just that. I've fixed fences, put a roof on a porch and many other small things. Word can travel too, if you help out one another might hear of you and welcome you if you go knocking there.

 

[Deadfall]

Exactly right.

Not trying to be confrontational because these are problems we have to deal with. Opportunity is dwindling everywhere.

That said I don’t think giving more tags to landowners just because they have animals on their land is the answer either. Sounds like the rancher your speaking about wants the tag for a completely just reason though.

Really though, what's 1 tag per landowner in grand scheme of things. Especially considering success rates are less then 20 percent.
Leave those tags separate from rest. U think it would be worth it just for the goodwill. Would it pay dividends immediately. Doubtful, would help soften some hard hearts though. Start building good carma and who knows what form or how it comes back.

Good breads good. Bad breads bad