Hunting in Griz Country— handgun or bear spray?

[mrroughit]

Anyone carry a 45-70 in the Alaska bush? Any testimonials on its use?

 

[yfarm]

There is an outfitter in western Mt whose guides only carry short barreled 45-70s, no handguns and the rifles are required to be in hand at all times. no Believe there is discussion on this site about that outfitter. I own a trapper 45-70 and regularly practice shooting offhand rapidly with multiple rounds at 10-15 yds in a tshirt and have no issue with recoil from 300 gr rounds.

 

[UpSideDown]

I read the white papers regarding the use of bear spray and defensive handguns and found that the papers supporting the use of bear spray were wildly crooked. I don’t remember what the gaping hole was in their argument, I think it was something like ‘of the people who didn’t die in a bear attack, bear spray was 97% effective” or something comical like that. It really threw any meaningful use of the paper out the window. There is no actual statistic that I could find showing how effective bear spray is outside of that often cited paper.

On the other hand there is a very detailed paper on the use of firearms in defense against bear in North America, and from what I remember of its findings, it said that there was so far about a 100% rate of success of deterring bears and surviving of the person was able to shoot the bear with anything (they recorded the smallest caliber I believe as 9mm and .38spl). If the person was able to shoot near the bear or use a warning shot it was mostly effective, but there was a definite benefit to hitting the bear anywhere.

Realistically I don’t think there is a handgun that is ‘enough gun’ for a large animal like that, that will stop it outside of shooting it in a crippling spot. I carry a 10mm and am trying underwood 220gr hardcast and underwood 135gr HP’s at 1,600fps. If you choose a handgun and a bear load you need to confirm that whatever load you shoot will feed reliably in your gun. I find the 220gr hard casts have issues with feeding in my M&P 10mm.

 

[wiarcher]

Another vote for carrying both.

 

[BDDFC]

I’ll take the gun of the time.

 

[BugleMeTimber]

I carry both, .44 Mag 5" barrel loaded with 305 grain hard casts.

 

[dla]

A couple of thoughts:

1. Lehigh extreme penetrators don't. Hardcast or don't bother.
2. Bears are fast. Waiting for proper reaction after deploying bear spray is not a good idea. Get out. Not likely to get more than 3 or four shots from a handgun either, so don't be fooled that 15round magazines are necessary.
3. Data on handgun usage shows that people who aren't forum approved pistoleros are successful.
4. Bear attacks are increasing.

 

[bkraushaar]

I read the white papers regarding the use of bear spray and defensive handguns and found that the papers supporting the use of bear spray were wildly crooked. I don’t remember what the gaping hole was in their argument, I think it was something like ‘of the people who didn’t die in a bear attack, bear spray was 97% effective” or something comical like that. It really threw any meaningful use of the paper out the window. There is no actual statistic that I could find showing how effective bear spray is outside of that often cited paper.

On the other hand there is a very detailed paper on the use of firearms in defense against bear in North America, and from what I remember of its findings, it said that there was so far about a 100% rate of success of deterring bears and surviving of the person was able to shoot the bear with anything (they recorded the smallest caliber I believe as 9mm and .38spl). If the person was able to shoot near the bear or use a warning shot it was mostly effective, but there was a definite benefit to hitting the bear anywhere.

Realistically I don’t think there is a handgun that is ‘enough gun’ for a large animal like that, that will stop it outside of shooting it in a crippling spot. I carry a 10mm and am trying underwood 220gr hardcast and underwood 135gr HP’s at 1,600fps. If you choose a handgun and a bear load you need to confirm that whatever load you shoot will feed reliably in your gun. I find the 220gr hard casts have issues with feeding in my M&P 10mm.

wiarcher, I'm a new-ish hunter headed to grizzly country Fall '24 with my bow. I've carried bear spray before and felt comfortable. For next year, I'm considering also carrying a pistol (sort of a "long" range/short-range combo). What's a basic/simple/affordable pistol that you might recommend? (like if the Tikka T3x were a pistol...)

 

[UpSideDown]

wiarcher, I'm a new-ish hunter headed to grizzly country Fall '24 with my bow. I've carried bear spray before and felt comfortable. For next year, I'm considering also carrying a pistol (sort of a "long" range/short-range combo). What's a basic/simple/affordable pistol that you might recommend? (like if the Tikka T3x were a pistol...)

I think you quoted the wrong guy.

 

[packgoatguy]

wiarcher, I'm a new-ish hunter headed to grizzly country Fall '24 with my bow. I've carried bear spray before and felt comfortable. For next year, I'm considering also carrying a pistol (sort of a "long" range/short-range combo). What's a basic/simple/affordable pistol that you might recommend? (like if the Tikka T3x were a pistol...)

I think a glock 20 might qualify as the t3x of bear pistols...

 

[Fun Guy]

wiarcher, I'm a new-ish hunter headed to grizzly country Fall '24 with my bow. I've carried bear spray before and felt comfortable. For next year, I'm considering also carrying a pistol (sort of a "long" range/short-range combo). What's a basic/simple/affordable pistol that you might recommend? (like if the Tikka T3x were a pistol...)

After several seasons of running an XDM 10MM in a Kenai Chest holster and being miserable by the end of the day, I picked up a six shot double action revolver in 327 Federal Magnum before this season. It's a screaming round, over 1200 FPS out of a two inch barrel and BB makes a 130 grain hardcast they say will easily penetrate a large bear's skull. It's a little cannon that is contollable with one hand.

With the new setup, I run my spray under my bino harness and the pistol on my pack belt. If I take the pack off, the gun easily and safely goes into a pocket or I just move the holster to my pants belt. The gun only weighs 17 ounces and is quite accurate, a very good "short" range option. I have a Ruger LCR but Taurus makes a couple 327 models for less money that should work as well. Great carry gun when not in the woods also.

 

[packgoatguy]

After several seasons of running an XDM 10MM in a Kenai Chest holster and being miserable by the end of the day, I picked up a six shot double action revolver in 327 Federal Magnum before this season. It's a screaming round, over 1200 FPS out of a two inch barrel and BB makes a 130 grain hardcast they say will easily penetrate a large bear's skull. It's a little cannon that is contollable with one hand.

With the new setup, I run my spray under my bino harness and the pistol on my pack belt. If I take the pack off, the gun easily and safely goes into a pocket or I just move the holster to my pants belt. The gun only weighs 17 ounces and is quite accurate, a very good "short" range option. I have a Ruger LCR but Taurus makes a couple 327 models for less money that should work as well. Great carry gun when not in the woods also.

Not a bad option! If "lightweight" is on the table, a 9mm with 115gr +p or +p+ underwood extreme penetrators will also get into that same velocity threshold, 1200-1300fps. A sig p365 for example is also about 17oz (note in the pic the laser light combo and suppressor and longer barrel add 6 oz or so). I'll add that the Kenai chest holster wasn't comfortable to wear all day, would dig into my chest, but I added a backing to it to spread the weight, now I go all day and forget its there. I mount my small 10x28 binos and rangefinder pouches on the front of it, so it's all contained in one setup to grab and go. Modified the kydex holster to accept my glocks with lights, sig p365, even a kel tec p17 if I'm looking for grouse instead of bears

 

[Thegman]

Read this if you haven't already: https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/ha...r-attack-73-cases-96-effective/#axzz5wdJB1jXk

This is good information, and helps separate "myth" from real world results. Bottom line is everything from 9mm up has been essentially 100% effective on all bears, black and brown, as long as hits were made.

Bear spray works great in cases where it's not really even needed (i.e. curious or nuisance bears), it does not work so well on bears seriously intent on doing harm. Bear spray effectiveness is WAY overestimated because people are much more willing to deploy it on a bear, and 99% of the time it's used is on non-aggressive or low-aggression bears, and those are recorded as "successes". If we separate out the cases where the bear spray was used on highly aggressive bears, it's effectiveness goes way down. Handguns are generally used in cases where they're genuinely needed, and they work.

About three years ago in Alaska, there were three fatalities from bear attacks, in two of the cases bear spray was deployed to no avail.

An example of bear spray on a truly aggressive bear. No bueno.

Bear spray does work well on moose though, IME.

 

[packgoatguy]

This is good information, and helps separate "myth" from real world results. Bottom line is everything from 9mm up has been essentially 100% effective on all bears, black and brown, as long as hits were made.

Bear spray works great in cases where it's not really even needed (i.e. curious or nuisance bears), it does not work so well on bears seriously intent on doing harm. Bear spray effectiveness is WAY overestimated because people are much more willing to deploy it on a bear, and 99% of the time it's used is on non-aggressive or low-aggression bears, and those are recorded as "successes". If we separate out the cases where the bear spray was used on highly aggressive bears, it's effectiveness goes way down. Handguns are generally used in cases where they're genuinely needed, and they work.

About three years ago in Alaska, there were three fatalities from bear attacks, in two of the cases bear spray was deployed to no avail.

An example of bear spray on a truly aggressive bear. No bueno.

Bear spray does work well on moose though, IME.

To your point, bear spray is ideal for de-escalating an encounter with bears. Sometimes they are just curious enough to pose the potential for a threat, but not enough of a threat to warrant lethal force. The spray can be used to get the bear on its merry way. This is why, at least in Grizzly country, I carry both. Wisdom and practice are needed to know which to use when.

 

[Thegman]

To your point, bear spray is ideal for de-escalating an encounter with bears. Sometimes they are just curious enough to pose the potential for a threat, but not enough of a threat to warrant lethal force. The spray can be used to get the bear on its merry way. This is why, at least in Grizzly country, I carry both. Wisdom and practice are needed to know which to use when.

I've spent a lot of time in the woods fooling with bears one way or another, sometimes foolishly...

At this point my thought is, if I ever actually need to defend myself against a bear, it’s going to happen extremely quickly with little or no time to think or react. I don't want any part of my brain choosing or questioning for even a millisecond about "what" to grab and "how" to use what I grab. One option with muscle memory practice hopefully avoids that possibility.

I read a paper that compared things like throwing rocks, slingshot, etc., etc. being as effective as bear spray for these "low level" encounters. If I have a bear being a jack wagon, like the one in the picture, I have always had plenty of time to figure out a non-bearspray option. (This one didn't really get shot, but it did get whacked with a cottonwood branch and run up a tree, slapping and hissing all the way)

 

[PantherMike]

FIREARM, if you need to spray ...why not spray bullets?

 

[TracksWapiti]

Pistol for all the reasons against bear spray that have already been mentioned. Just keep in mind cartridges 10mm and lighter are VERY unlikely to stop a grizzly charge unless you hit it in the head, which most can't do under stress

See recent article about hunter who got charged by a sow griz and ripped off 7 shots with his 10mm, 4 of them missing completely, two to her chest, and one breaking a hind leg. He only survived certain mauling thanks to his hunting buddy shooting her broadside thru both lungs, presumably with his rifle:

https://www.outdoorlife.com/survival/10mm-glock-grizzly-bear-charge/

Wealth of good advice on here already. I can't say much from personal experience, but this is a point of intense personal interest researching the last few years in preparation for elk and fall black bear hunts. Tim Sundles, owner/operator of Buffalo Bore Ammo wrote the best article I've read on the subject:

https://buffalobore.net/Trail&CampGuns.pdf

I only hunt in black bear country and carry an HK45 in a chest rig with 255 +P hard cast by Underwood. I've put thousands of rounds down it over the years and dry practice religiously leading up to any hunt in bear country

Seriously considering a Magnum Research BFR Bisley in 454 Casull and learning how to shoot it well before hunting in grizzly country. There are just too many scenarios in the backcountry where I won't have my rifle in my hands and a grizzly encounter is likely (in camp at night, field dressing, packing meat, etc.)

Thanks to grizzlies in the lower 48 remaining Federally protected as an endangered species and their numbers growing unchecked each year, hunter/grizzly incidents are becoming increasingly likely until grizzlies are de-listed and states regulate hunting them

 

[Thegman]

Pistol for all the reasons against bear spray that have already been mentioned. Just keep in mind cartridges 10mm and lighter are VERY unlikely to stop a grizzly charge unless you hit it in the head, which most can't do under stress

The available evidence doesn't support this statement. Read the link above quoted in my earlier post. They are now up to well over 120 cases of handguns used on black and brown/grizzlies. Everything 9mm up remains essentially 100% effective as long as hits are made. 10mm has a 100% track record so far.

Your assumption that the 10mm only worked because a second firearm was used in the case you posted is really speculation. And it wasn't mentioned what the other firearm was (I don't think?), being that they were bow hunting, it was most likely a handgun of some type as well. Either way, the documented cases of 10mm show that it works well.

 

[Lycanthorns]

Planning to hunt black bear in KY this year with my recurve. Taking besr spray and a .357 revolver with 140 grain copper HPs.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

Ammo recommendations?

Buffalo bore 147g outdoorsman hard cast.