roadrunner
WKR
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- May 10, 2015
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Precisely. The only way to KNOW is to shoot a sufficient sample size. That's the "simple concept" many aren't "catching on to".
Not necessarily.
Precisely. The only way to KNOW is to shoot a sufficient sample size. That's the "simple concept" many aren't "catching on to".
I did this for 20 years. I thought it's what reloading and shooting were all about.
This discussion is not on topic. Yes, ypu can answer in the context of three shots groups.The two questions you asked in the original post cannot be adequately answered in the context of a 3-shot group for each. That is why this discussion is still on topic.
For example, you asked "1) handloading: can a proper load development turn a 2 MOA group into a sub MOA one using a given projectile?"
So say you have a 2 MOA cartridge/rifle/shooter combo-- defined as every shot you take falls within a 2 MOA spread centered on your point of aim, every time. Sometimes by random chance that combo will shoot three shots in a .25 MOA spread. Sometimes by random chance it will shoot three shots in a 1.75 MOA spread. And so on. So using three-shot groups, your question is unlikely to be answered on the context of three-shot groups.
So let's change the context to a ten-shot group (or two five-shot groups overlaid on the same target, or three 3-shot groups plus one extra on the same target, etc). In my experience, if you're starting with high-quality ammo like Hornady Precision Hunter, then no, it is not a realistic expectation; if you and your gun are shooting 2 MOA 10-shot groups with factory ELD-X bullets, it is highly unlikely that you are going to be able to shoot sub-1 MOA 10-shot groups with hand loaded ELD-X bullets, even with an optimized hand loading process, high quality brass, etc.
More dataBecause Rokslide mafia says 10 round groups reveal a guns true MOA.
In all seriousness 3 shot groups weren't telling me what I needed to know. Too many possible variables.
Plus way better shooters, load developers, and rifleman on this forum all insist that you need to shoot 10 shot groups to see what your gun really shoots.
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it is irrelevant which is which, all that matters is there's a difference between the 2.
That was not a half MOA gun/ammo combo. Or maybe conditions changed slightly/the barrel got hot/the shooter made an error. If I say my rifle is half MOA, it's because i have made extensive testing with it and i know that gun very well. If you were thinking that was a half moa gun after the first 3 shots i assume it was one of the first groups you shot with it.More data
3 shot group. I have a 1/2' MOA rifle!! WooHoo!
+7 more
uh, nevermind
Thanks for answering the original questions. That's interesting. Lot of different and contrasting opinions here. I thought this subject was much easier to cope with!1) No
2) Often times good factory ammo is more accurate than a hand load. Amazing how well they do their job for the most part.
I don't agree. Preparing for '21 elk hunt I shot 5 shot groups with 7 different factory loads in my Ruger American .308. These were in separate sessions and the barrel wasn't cleaned between sessions. I don't remember the exact orderr, except for the fact the Hornady loads were shot last.You might get lucky and turn a 2moa gun into a 1 moa with hand loads, but it will probably not get much better.
Hell, if statistics have no value, and cannot accurately predict a specific rifle and load's repeatable performance, do you also believe the earth is flat ?Evidence?
The position to the "bullseye" your first shot is.
Anything else is just feel good measures...
Oh yeah, because I want my hunting rifle, that I'm using to kill things, to be less precise and less predictable than my paper killing gun. Come on man...Top target is first group first 3 shots are good then as it heated up it started throwing shots to the left the lower target was the next 5 of your continuous string and still shooting to the left.
I am sure you will say its the opposite but oh well...pencil barrel hunting rifle will through shots everytime how much depends on the rifle 10 round groups don't mean anything on a hunting rifle. Heavey barrel target rifles sure.
Precisely. The only way to KNOW is to shoot a sufficient sample size. That's the "simple concept" many aren't "catching on to".
Thus the desire to find a load that is predictably accurate based on adequate sample size and shooting. You want to have confidence that when you're under stress in a hunting situation that you can absolutely shoot +/- given standard deviation of that rifle and load.I would say it's not as most people shoot worse in a hunting situation if they are being honest. No bench or perfectly flat area to shoot in most hunting situations.
But there's not, the point is both fall within the cone. The fact that they appear slightly different is due to the random distribution of small sample size.it is irrelevant which is which, all that matters is there's a difference between the 2.
If both groups fall within the established cone (the one that takes a very large sample size) then they shoot the same, you can have confidence in first round impacts.which way one goes can depend on other things, there's no reasonable way for me to determine if your gun shoots better hot or cold.
The point is to know how much dispersion there is between any 3 shot string fired, and to have your zero be in the proven center of that cone.also, just to stir the pot, all those nice 30 round groups started with the first 3 rounds. not that it means anything, but just saying lol.
The myth is the blanket statement hot sporter contour barrels deviate with heat. Single point cut rifled barrels, and properly stress relieved hammer forged or button rifled barrels don't "start pitching shots after the 3rd round". What people are most commonly observing in those circumstances is the exact point we're talking about, that people don't actually know the precision of their system, and it's not as precise as everyone wishes it is, so they excuse "fliers" with things like barrel heat.hot vs cold barrel is no myth, I can assure you of that. unless you found a way around metallurgy, things will always change between the 2. will they change enough to notice? maybe, but then you have to look alloy composition, grain structure etc. and that also applies to bullets as not all jackets are the same. plus the retained heat in the chamber will have an effect overall. but that's getting into thermal dynamics.
Hell, if statistics have no value, and cannot accurately predict a specific rifle and load's repeatable performance, do you also believe the earth is flat ?
The reason for this being such a touchy subject is because the opinions contrast with the proven science of ballistics, and statistics contradict the traditional ideology of reloading. For example, and my answer to your first question, is that if you have a load combo that shoots a 2 MOA group, it's highly likely that you'll never get it to consistently shoot 1 MOA or less by manipulating one variable, like seating depth or powder charge. The example given previously about a 55gr charge shooting a 2" group, and a 56.5gr charge shooting a .25" group, is not a "node", and those loads likely aren't even measurably different when taken to a larger sample size. That is a classic observation of random distribution and noisy small sample data sets. Load development is more about finding the combination of components that produce consistently low dispersion.Thanks for answering the original questions. That's interesting. Lot of different and contrasting opinions here. I thought this subject was much easier to cope with!
LOL, no, it's absolutely not okay to be off target by several inches. A 10 round minimum group will tell you how far "off target" you are with more predicatability, due to the laws of statistics, than a 3 shot group. Moreover, a 20 shot group will have more validity than 10, and so on... The law of "small numbers" will tell you that individual data points amongst a small set of data will inappropriately skew the data one way or the other, leading people to a false belief in the outcome.So it's okay to be off target by several inches just so long as they group tight?
Makes as much sense as a screen door on a submarine McFly...