Holding windage for practice

[Erussell01]

Me too brother. Me too.

You have identified a deficiency that would be greatly helped with a ffp mil based reticle.

The SWFA line of rifle scopes would be ideal for helping you overcome this deficiency.

If you are scared of the Fixed 10x. Consider the 3-9 or 3-15 powers. Unless you can find a fixed 6x.






Let me introduce you to the idea of a “wind number.” It lets you be generally in the ballpark of an accurate wind call based on what you are experiencing at the moment of the shot. If you can estimate the wind, and you know your distance, you can make a few rough estimations on how much windage to hold in a ffp reticle.

With Any ffp reticle, you can be reasonably sure that your bullet will drift at a constant rate if subjected to a constant wind. With a mil based ffp reticle, that constant rate of drift is most easily understood since we can break it down to .1mil increments. The bullet you are using will inform you how much it can be expected to drift. This rate of drift is generally defined as the wind number.
-G1 BC of chosen bullet, multiply by 10 roughly equals your “wind number.”
- so 73gr ELDM g1 of 0.398x10=3.98 3.98mph. So call it 4mph.
- This means: this bullet drifts about 0.1 mil for every 100yds in a 90deg 4mph wind. Also means it drifts 0.2mil for every 100yds in an 8mph wind. And 0.3mil/100yds in a 12mph wind…0.4mil/100yds in a 16mph wind…etc.

-So shot 1 is 187yds (roughly 200yds). 12-16mph wind (so with our wind number of 4mph, we can break these down into multiples of 3 and 4).
This means that the bullet is going to drift between .6 and .8 mils down wind at this distance. With our mil scope we can actually plot out the difference between these two points in the reticle as our error or uncertainty. Basically we can feel confident that the bullet will land in between these two hash marks. This has created a bracket we can stick on either side of our target to give us the most likely chance of hitting our target.
-Second shot is 405yds. Same wind? So 12-16 mph breaks down into wind number multiples of 3-4. So every 100yds we drift between .3 and .4 mils. A little multiplication tells us our wind bracket is between 1.2-1.6mil. Again hold into the wind and bracket the vitals in between our two goal posts.

Brother you just blew my mind

 

[43.6N]

Brother you just blew my mind

Wait till you learn about quick drop. It will make BDC reticles useless to you.

 

[PredatorX]

Yes Quick Wind is awesome.

Out of curiosity when you guys are holding for wind are you focusing on the center dot/crosshairs, the sub tension mark for wind hold or are you bracketing thus concentrating on the bracket itself?


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[43.6N]

Yes Quick Wind is awesome.

Out of curiosity when you guys are holding for wind are you focusing on the center dot/crosshairs, the sub tension mark for wind hold or are you bracketing thus concentrating on the bracket itself?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Me personally, I consider all wind estimations to be exactly that: estimations.
I always consider the high estimate and low estimate.
If my bracket is larger than my vital zone target, that should tell me that I am too far away for a shot with the given wind estimate.

So long answer, but I’m focused on the bracket. Specifically how my target is fitting inside of it.

 

[anonymous22]

Yes Quick Wind is awesome.

Out of curiosity when you guys are holding for wind are you focusing on the center dot/crosshairs, the sub tension mark for wind hold or are you bracketing thus concentrating on the bracket itself?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Holding, with my focus on the corresponding dope.

Using bracketing to find that dope. Wind is hardly steady. If you know your dope is 2.5 mills left hold at peak wind, and wind average you have 1.5 mil L hold, you have a few options:

You can hold the peak gust and shoot that, you can shoot the low, which I would use the average, or you can split it at 2 mils hence bracketing. You can factor terrain and wind at max ord as well, and further dial in your bracket once you have that skill set.

A reason why holding with a proper reticle and FFP can be mo bedda than dialing or using some Bdc system.

 

[N3v3rMind]

Holding, with my focus on the corresponding dope.

Using bracketing to find that dope. Wind is hardly steady. If you know your dope is 2.5 mills left hold at peak wind, and wind average you have 1.5 mil L hold, you have a few options:

You can hold the peak gust and shoot that, you can shoot the low, which I would use the average, or you can split it at 2 mils hence bracketing. You can factor terrain and wind at max ord as well, and further dial in your bracket once you have that skill set.

A reason why holding with a proper reticle and FFP can be mo bedda than dialing or using some Bdc system.

When y’all say “bracketing” what do you mean specifically? I’ve never used MIL scopes, and I’ve never heard that term in reference to any MOA scopes.

Please forgive my ignorance

 

[Chris in TN]

Sigh.

You've got lots of people in this thread trying to give you helpful advice but they're missing the main thing.

The core problem is a lack of time practicing in the wind.

I struggle to practice in real wind. Even when it's very windy here, my home range parallels a big treeline and those trees greatly mitigate the wind. I get a few days a year where I can actually shoot in moderate to high winds (let's say 5 to 15mph). And like you, I suck, though maybe not 'miss a coyote under 200 yards' level of suck. When people explain their hacks to you, thank them, then go double down on using whatever equipment you have, in actual windy conditions. If you hit the point that you think your gear is limiting you, THEN consider swapping.

 

[Chris in TN]

When y’all say “bracketing” what do you mean specifically? I’ve never used MIL scopes, and I’ve never heard that term in reference to any MOA scopes.

Please forgive my ignorance

You're probably going to get a chorus of people telling you that mere mortal men can't figure out wind holds without a MIL based scope. You can join them. But if you currently have a scope with wind-hold hashmarks, you can use it, too. Even if they're in MOA.

Your .223 is probably going to need roughly 4moa of wind correction at 500 yards in a 10mph wind.

Let's say your scope has 2moa wind hashes. Each of those, assuming you're at max scope power or wherever those hashes are really 2moa, is good for ~5mph of wind.

If you have a shot at 500 yards and you think you have a wind of 2-3 maybe 4 mph, you know your bullet is going to fall somewhere inside of that first 2moa hashmark. If the shot is only 300 yards, it'll be much closer to center. So maybe you hold in the middle of that first segment of the reticle, using the crosshairs and the 2moa hash as a bracket. You will very, very likely hit within 1/2moa of your goal, assuming you have a steady rest.

Now let's say the wind picks up and it's pushing what you think to be 10mph, crosswind. You're going to hold close to your SECOND 2moa hash. If you're second guessing your wind hold and think you're overdoing it, nudge yourself back closer to that first hashmark. In my experience, eleven times out of ten, once the winds go over 5mph, I overestimate the wind, and more importantly, overestimate them being perfect 90 degree crosswinds, and overestimate them being full value across the entire range I'm shooting through. When in doubt, hold less. Up to a point, which I'll address later.

That basic method (adjusted to match you rifle's actual wind performance) will see you through a lot of scenarios, especially in early season hunting in early morning or late afternoon scenarios where the breezes are more moderate. Much less so in the dead of winter or on the plains at noon if you're on a late season elk hunt or a Wyoming prairie antelope hunt.

In a fashion like that you can divide your holds into light winds (0-5mph) or heavy winds (5-10mph) and with faster calibers you might go further and divide your 0-10mph holds into thirds, or light/med/heavy winds.

All of that goes out the window when you're hunting December migratory elk in a 30mph gale and they're 600 yards away. Don't take those shots. Just don't. But what I'm describing will easily let you kill coyotes at 200 yards with the gear you have now.

(Though in all fairness to the mil guys, yeah, I'd drop the BDC scope in favor of dialing. Dial once and you'll never use BDC again).

 

[ElPollo]

Which it very very easily could be. I'm going off the wind data I had from the weather app that day and I am really really amateur at wind calling live in person

First, you are not alone. We all suck and we are all striving to improve.

Using weather app wind speeds is one of your issues. These reflect 10m AGL speeds. Wind speed at ground level end up being a lot more variable because they are affected by terrain. Get a kestrel or some other wind meter.

The suggestions you are getting here about establishing your wind number for your rifle/cartridge system, bracketing, and getting a scope with a good mil reticle are good ones. However, keep in mind that wind calls at higher wind speeds above 10 mph and especially in complex terrain are just difficult for everyone. Most people don’t go practice in those conditions. They wait for calm days and tend to shoot on flat ranges. Best option here is getting out and practicing in field conditions on progressively shitty days with a wind meter. Start on the calmer days with complex terrain and then move into the windier days when you want to start crushing the confidence you’ve built and rebuilding. Learn to read vegetation movement. Pay attention to terrain in relation to that movement because the number you get on your wind meter where you are sitting may be different from what it might read between you and the target.

There is also a chance that your missed wind calls are also related to shooting from positions that you don’t practice shooting from. The majority of people “practice” at a flat range from a bench, but don’t shoot that way in the field. You can remove some of that potential error by using Form’s positional practice drill that focuses on prone, seated, kneeling, and offhand shooting under a timer at 100 yards. There’s a thread here on practice vs equipment from him that describes the drill and includes a link to download the pdf target.

And remember that all of the skill you build has an expiration date and the suckage will creep on you. I’ve been dealing with those curveballs that life tends to throw of late. And I can attest that my skills and the range I am comfortable shooting at have declined. I have to be aware of that and account for it in my decision-making about what shots I am willing to take.

 

[43.6N]

@Erussell01
Wind calling is an art. Very very smart people can be very bad at it. The best people at calling wind are shooting and living in the wind on a daily to weekly basis. Like @Chris in TN said, the core problem is a lack of time practicing in the wind.

The core problem is a lack of time practicing in the wind

The more time you can spend in the wind, the more comfortable you can get with how your bullet responds to that wind.

Many different devices, scopes, mental models, and estimation tools exist to help people make better wind calls.
I have a framework that works for me. It has proven to be accurate enough for my uses and ranges. So that’s what I will discuss.
I won’t discount or bash anyone else’s model. I’m only going to show what I use and what I’m comfortable with.

When y’all say “bracketing” what do you mean specifically?

I’m a visual learner, so bear with me while I show some pictures I put together:

Wind is hardly steady

This is the main problem.
We have the wind at our shooting location. But also wind at the target, and wind along the path of the bullet. None will be exactly the same. We also have directional uncertainty. Full value, half value, etc. it gets very probabilistic very quickly.

So at best I can say my wind will be “between value A and B.

I personally simplify greatly to pick a high value and a low value.
-I pick the average wind that I can measure or observe: 15mph for example in OP.
-I let that number inform which 2 wind number multiples it falls in between: 3 and 4 as discussed previously.
-and I let those two values assume all the inherent error of my estimations and measurements: AKA a wind bracket of probable hit.

For example:
Most coyotes I’ve come across are ~about~ 30” from rump to chest (Plz let’s not get hung up on coyote size for the sake of discussion).

My FFP reticle is a ruler. The hash marks cut a defined measurement that scales at distance. This is a subtension. MilRad, MOA are simply two ways of measuring, but the math can be done for both. I’m going to stay in miliradians since that is my base of experience.

(Target size in inches X 27.27)/distance in yards=Miliradians subtended.
So 30” at 187yds is 4.4mils wide.
30” at 405yds is 2.02mils wide.

Here you can see the coyote scaled in the reticle for its appropriate distance:

And here you can see the appropriate bracket showing me my expected error for high and low wind estimates. Note how my crosshairs are leading into the wind, and I am focused on my bracket over the vitals (feel free to zoom in):

_____________________________
Now let’s do the same for 405yds:


The key, for me at least, is I am comfortable accepting that I cannot make an exact wind call. Only an estimate of high and low winds.

So for me focusing on a “single” wind hold would not help my hit probability. Rather, when I use my ruler to show myself what the high limits and low limits will look like on the target, I can then decide if it gives me a high enough margin for a good hit.

 

[LongWayAround]

@43.6N great post there!

 

[Erussell01]

Sigh.

You've got lots of people in this thread trying to give you helpful advice but they're missing the main thing.

The core problem is a lack of time practicing in the wind.

I struggle to practice in real wind. Even when it's very windy here, my home range parallels a big treeline and those trees greatly mitigate the wind. I get a few days a year where I can actually shoot in moderate to high winds (let's say 5 to 15mph). And like you, I suck, though maybe not 'miss a coyote under 200 yards' level of suck. When people explain their hacks to you, thank them, then go double down on using whatever equipment you have, in actual windy conditions. If you hit the point that you think your gear is limiting you, THEN consider swapping.

Sigh.

You've got lots of people in this thread trying to give you helpful advice but they're missing the main thing.

The core problem is a lack of time practicing in the wind.

I struggle to practice in real wind. Even when it's very windy here, my home range parallels a big treeline and those trees greatly mitigate the wind. I get a few days a year where I can actually shoot in moderate to high winds (let's say 5 to 15mph). And like you, I suck, though maybe not 'miss a coyote under 200 yards' level of suck. When people explain their hacks to you, thank them, then go double down on using whatever equipment you have, in actual windy conditions. If you hit the point that you think your gear is limiting you, THEN consider swapping.

First, you are not alone. We all suck and we are all striving to improve.

Using weather app wind speeds is one of your issues. These reflect 10m AGL speeds. Wind speed at ground level end up being a lot more variable because they are affected by terrain. Get a kestrel or some other wind meter.

The suggestions you are getting here about establishing your wind number for your rifle/cartridge system, bracketing, and getting a scope with a good mil reticle are good ones. However, keep in mind that wind calls at higher wind speeds above 10 mph and especially in complex terrain are just difficult for everyone. Most people don’t go practice in those conditions. They wait for calm days and tend to shoot on flat ranges. Best option here is getting out and practicing in field conditions on progressively shitty days with a wind meter. Start on the calmer days with complex terrain and then move into the windier days when you want to start crushing the confidence you’ve built and rebuilding. Learn to read vegetation movement. Pay attention to terrain in relation to that movement because the number you get on your wind meter where you are sitting may be different from what it might read between you and the target.

There is also a chance that your missed wind calls are also related to shooting from positions that you don’t practice shooting from. The majority of people “practice” at a flat range from a bench, but don’t shoot that way in the field. You can remove some of that potential error by using Form’s positional practice drill that focuses on prone, seated, kneeling, and offhand shooting under a timer at 100 yards. There’s a thread here on practice vs equipment from him that describes the drill and includes a link to download the pdf target.

And remember that all of the skill you build has an expiration date and the suckage will creep on you. I’ve been dealing with those curveballs that life tends to throw of late. And I can attest that my skills and the range I am comfortable shooting at have declined. I have to be aware of that and account for it in my decision-making about what shots I am willing to take.

That makes sense. I completely stopped shooting off of a bench and other than zeroing my rifles, now everything is field shooting position practice since that's where I need the most work. I rebuilt my home range and can eak out almost 350 across the bean field before the corn comes up, but the big issue is the woods on the north blocks the big wind so I only get good wind prsctice with a stout south wind. I don't have a great range near me (the one that is closest is just a sh!+ show) so I'm a home based shooter most often. I have been doing Forms time drill and I have seen improvement but thats normally under nice weather conditions. I shot through the whole winter and learned my range finder won't read for crap when the snow is blowing at the target so I had some issues when it was really nasty.

 

[Erussell01]

@Erussell01
Wind calling is an art. Very very smart people can be very bad at it. The best people at calling wind are shooting and living in the wind on a daily to weekly basis. Like @Chris in TN said, the core problem is a lack of time practicing in the wind.

The more time you can spend in the wind, the more comfortable you can get with how your bullet responds to that wind.

Many different devices, scopes, mental models, and estimation tools exist to help people make better wind calls.
I have a framework that works for me. It has proven to be accurate enough for my uses and ranges. So that’s what I will discuss.
I won’t discount or bash anyone else’s model. I’m only going to show what I use and what I’m comfortable with.

I’m a visual learner, so bear with me while I show some pictures I put together:

This is the main problem.
We have the wind at our shooting location. But also wind at the target, and wind along the path of the bullet. None will be exactly the same. We also have directional uncertainty. Full value, half value, etc. it gets very probabilistic very quickly.

So at best I can say my wind will be “between value A and B.

I personally simplify greatly to pick a high value and a low value.
-I pick the average wind that I can measure or observe: 15mph for example in OP.
-I let that number inform which 2 wind number multiples it falls in between: 3 and 4 as discussed previously.
-and I let those two values assume all the inherent error of my estimations and measurements: AKA a wind bracket of probable hit.

For example:
Most coyotes I’ve come across are ~about~ 30” from rump to chest (Plz let’s not get hung up on coyote size for the sake of discussion).
View attachment 1075842
My FFP reticle is a ruler. The hash marks cut a defined measurement that scales at distance. This is a subtension. MilRad, MOA are simply two ways of measuring, but the math can be done for both. I’m going to stay in miliradians since that is my base of experience.

(Target size in inches X 27.27)/distance in yards=Miliradians subtended.
So 30” at 187yds is 4.4mils wide.
30” at 405yds is 2.02mils wide.

Here you can see the coyote scaled in the reticle for its appropriate distance:
View attachment 1075843
And here you can see the appropriate bracket showing me my expected error for high and low wind estimates. Note how my crosshairs are leading into the wind, and I am focused on my bracket over the vitals (feel free to zoom in):
View attachment 1075844
_____________________________
Now let’s do the same for 405yds:
View attachment 1075845View attachment 1075846

The key, for me at least, is I am comfortable accepting that I cannot make an exact wind call. Only an estimate of high and low winds.

So for me focusing on a “single” wind hold would not help my hit probability. Rather, when I use my ruler to show myself what the high limits and low limits will look like on the target, I can then decide if it gives me a high enough margin for a good hit.

Brother I screenshotted that to save forever. That was incredibly informative.

Based on your 405 drawing I can see why I hit where I did. I certainly did not have enough hold into the wind. I still had center cross hair on the hair of the front shoulder and if I mis judged his body angle that makes perfect sense.

Wow, I really appreciate the time you took there to teach me and I can see the utility in bracketing. I'm going to have to seriously reconsider throwing some money in a coffee can to get an optic and a pallet of ammo to practice that with

 

[Erussell01]

@Erussell01
Wind calling is an art. Very very smart people can be very bad at it. The best people at calling wind are shooting and living in the wind on a daily to weekly basis. Like @Chris in TN said, the core problem is a lack of time practicing in the wind.

The more time you can spend in the wind, the more comfortable you can get with how your bullet responds to that wind.

Many different devices, scopes, mental models, and estimation tools exist to help people make better wind calls.
I have a framework that works for me. It has proven to be accurate enough for my uses and ranges. So that’s what I will discuss.
I won’t discount or bash anyone else’s model. I’m only going to show what I use and what I’m comfortable with.

I’m a visual learner, so bear with me while I show some pictures I put together:

This is the main problem.
We have the wind at our shooting location. But also wind at the target, and wind along the path of the bullet. None will be exactly the same. We also have directional uncertainty. Full value, half value, etc. it gets very probabilistic very quickly.

So at best I can say my wind will be “between value A and B.

I personally simplify greatly to pick a high value and a low value.
-I pick the average wind that I can measure or observe: 15mph for example in OP.
-I let that number inform which 2 wind number multiples it falls in between: 3 and 4 as discussed previously.
-and I let those two values assume all the inherent error of my estimations and measurements: AKA a wind bracket of probable hit.

For example:
Most coyotes I’ve come across are ~about~ 30” from rump to chest (Plz let’s not get hung up on coyote size for the sake of discussion).
View attachment 1075842
My FFP reticle is a ruler. The hash marks cut a defined measurement that scales at distance. This is a subtension. MilRad, MOA are simply two ways of measuring, but the math can be done for both. I’m going to stay in miliradians since that is my base of experience.

(Target size in inches X 27.27)/distance in yards=Miliradians subtended.
So 30” at 187yds is 4.4mils wide.
30” at 405yds is 2.02mils wide.

Here you can see the coyote scaled in the reticle for its appropriate distance:
View attachment 1075843
And here you can see the appropriate bracket showing me my expected error for high and low wind estimates. Note how my crosshairs are leading into the wind, and I am focused on my bracket over the vitals (feel free to zoom in):
View attachment 1075844
_____________________________
Now let’s do the same for 405yds:
View attachment 1075845View attachment 1075846

The key, for me at least, is I am comfortable accepting that I cannot make an exact wind call. Only an estimate of high and low winds.

So for me focusing on a “single” wind hold would not help my hit probability. Rather, when I use my ruler to show myself what the high limits and low limits will look like on the target, I can then decide if it gives me a high enough margin for a good hit.

What's nuts is I already do this for drop using the pins on my bow. Not for windage but for quick ranging if I need a follow up shot or something happens and I cant range. 1 pin on body means it's over 60, 2 means 50-60, 3 means 40 to 50, 4 means its 20 to 30 and 5 means its 20 or less on an average size whitetail. I had never thought to do something similar on game with a rifle.

Rokslide is the best