Help aging rams ? Family banter

[smg]

I'm going to say 10 plus. Maybe closer to 14 than 10. While I previously indicated a rear view helps remove doubt, this is a good example of where a side view for aging would have helped me - at least it should have helped me.

 

[Larry Bartlett]

Not the one from Sportsman's Warehouse. My ex wife confiscated that particular ram from Red Sheep Creek area. It was a bruiser like this one though.

 

[Broomd]

How old do you think this sheep is?

That's an old one; probably not from the White Mountains, but certainly has the deep, gnarly annuli of that ancient Interior range.

 

[Broomd]

IMO the whole aging ram thing has to be reconsidered at some point. The ram is either a full curl it isn't. If three experts can't agree when they are holding the horns in their hands, how difficult is it to judge from hundreds of yards? I think Joe Want has been involved in this "aging and judging" discussion for years. He's forgotten more sheep encounters than I've seen in the field. Maybe wantj43 is him and can school us up?

My last sheep hunt was a hand full of years ago with a friend who shot a ram at close range after we both agreed it was a legal ram. The tips met the top of the hair line from multiple angles. The biologist disagreed and counted 7 years and that its horns had an ellipsed circle. His trophy AND meat were confiscated. It made us both sick that we misjudged that ram. I didn't see that coming even after packing it and caring for it for days. Sank my confidence frankly, but it taught me to strictly avoid shooting a ram that isn't abundantly obviously full curl. Not my proudest field call but I would have shot it if he hadn't. Anyway, hard lesson to learn fellas. This thread and ones like it help others avoid this shit.

Ouch, man that's a tough one. Appreciate the candor in sharing this.
Was there no way of appealing that decision?
Do you have a pic of that ram, Larry?
Really unfortunate it happened, but horn judging isn't a perfect science and normally a sheep that is close gets the nod.

 

[MBN]

13/14 Might be one between my 12 and 13? Kind of looks like one on the left but not the right to me. Great looking ram!! Is it August yet?

 

[carsonkeys]

My inexperience is probably showing but as a guy who’s never hunted sheep, but will be able to starting in ‘24 and have been learning as much as I can prior to that, I’m getting at the very least 9. The rings close to the bases really intimidate me. Be curious if I was off on any of these.

 

[Bighorn80]

That certainly is a great sheep above and gets the juices flowing to get out and look for one like that. I put it at 12.
I personally think if a ram is brought in that is not 100% full curl and the "professionals" have a difficult time aging it based on true annual rings and "false" annuali, a hunter that wishes to dispute it can request a tooth be pulled for aging. F&G could even require the hunter to pay to have it done... my guess is most hunters who were confident enough to harvest the ram and bring it in to get sealed would gladly pay a lab fee to get a definitive answer instead of an interpretation.
I do agree the best way to avoid any question is to enjoy every aspect of the hunt and only harvest a no brainer, but mistakes do happen.

 

[carsonkeys]

here's an example of an 8-9 y/o ram. One bio claimed 9 and the other decided 8 y/o.

View attachment 514209

Here's a 12 yoView attachment 514210

User-error obviously, but I’m not seeing 12 on that one Larry? Am I missing some at the base?

 

[MBN]

For those experienced in aging - how critical is it to view the annuli from the back? It seems to me that even a trained eye may get fooled from the side but seeing the annuli from the back removes more doubt.

From my experience it kind of depends on the ram, some rams are a lot easier than others to see from the side vs behind while others aren't. When they are in your hands(sometimes the spotter) and looking at the back of the horns you can see how the angles change where there is a annuli and usually don't see that with a false annuli. obviously not a perfect science but looking at all angles helps a lot. Being able to take pictures from a spotting scope helps greatly! I haven't and wouldn't shoot a sheep I thought was 8 because it seems to always be different one way or the other after you have them in your hands or Fish and Game/Troopers hands. Where I put the x looks like a false to me, you can see how the angle on the inside of the horn doesn't change like the others do between annuli. Hopefully this makes sense...

 

[Larry Bartlett]

shit dude it's anyone's guess. The bio and trooper agreed on 12 years back in 1999. Skip Scott mounted that one and said it was 11/12. Over 40" and lamb tips intact. It could have been 6 or 20 and I would have smoked it just the same. Curl plusses aren't easy to come by then or now.

edit...from memory his teeth were worn down more than 10 years.

 

[Larry Bartlett]

broom'd. Those photos are his to share not mine. Looks like any "tweener," half of us would say legal and the others say sub-legal. Only thing that matters was decided by a young bio doing his job 8 years ago.

 

[MBN]

This ram was interesting, it was shot in the horn a year or two before. I can only imagine what the story of the hunter that shot it. The bullet went through the horn and the core. The shot horn was a inch shorter and annuli a lot different. When I got it sealed they aged the shot horn, It didn't make sense to me but that goes to show that you never know what they will say on counting rings. It was easily legal either way so it didn't make sense to argue.

 

[MBN]

Exit hole.. You can see the difference in rings

 

[adventure907]

This ram was interesting, it was shot in the horn a year or two before. I can only imagine what the story of the hunter that shot it. The bullet went through the horn and the core. The shot horn was a inch shorter and annuli a lot different. When I got it sealed they aged the shot horn, It didn't make sense to me but that goes to show that you never know what they will say on counting rings. It was easily legal either way so it didn't make sense to argue. View attachment 516444View attachment 516442

What did they age it at?

 

[MBN]

What did they age it at?

8 They counted 9 one the left horn

 

[smg]

The annuli is not nearly as distinct when comparing the shot horn to the other side. Its interesting how determining the annuli in some cases can be so distinct while in other cases its seems to be a complete guess.

 

[Bambistew]

here's an example of an 8-9 y/o ram. One bio claimed 9 and the other decided 8 y/o.

View attachment 514209

That's a tricky one. I don't' think any bio pretends to know the exact age of any ram. Unless they have an ear tag and the know their birth date, there is always a chance they are off.

Was the 3/4 ring 2011/2012 winter? I have a few rams that show up at 1/2 to /2/3 the normal growth from that winter. IMO that ram is 8 for sure, but probably 9 assuming that ring lines up with the bad winter. But it also gives me pause that its a false anulus because it shows up faintly the next year. It also makes me question that its a false ring, because the growth length would be consistently smaller between years as expected.



When aging near the base, the back /inside of the horn will have an abrupt change of direct at the anulus, where as the outside edge is is more round and concentric.

 

[smg]

8

So they determined the age of 8 from the shot side?

 

[MBN]

So they determined the age of 8 from the shot side?

Yes, like I said it seemed odd to me.

 

[Larry Bartlett]

Bambi I shot that ram around 2012 or '13.