Heavy Bolt lift on Tikka 6.5

[Ucsdryder]

Congrats on the bull!

Would you say your handloads and chamber are the root cause of the issue or do you think it’s from not cleaning for 100 rounds?

I have about 6 rifles that get shot minimum 3 days per week average, and another 6 that get shot average 1 day per week minimum. I don’t think any of those guns have been cleaned in 2 years, and 5 of them have had barrel swaps in the last 3-6 months from wearing out due to round count.

Not a single one has had a major malfunction or barrel life “lessened” by not cleaning. Does this mean everyone should not clean ever? I don’t know. Does it mean that a failure at 100 rounds can routinely happen? Not likely based on what I’ve seen, but not impossible.

Heck, in the last 12 months I’ve seen multiple samples of the most expensive bolt actions you can buy, completely fail due to a little bit of blowing dust getting into the action. Multiple times. Crap happens.

Mitigating risk is a smart strategy in my opinion, but I don’t think the use case/result here was totally due to a simple lack of cleaning. The numbers I’ve seen on a dozen guns recently would lead my thinking towards correlation does not imply causation, due to your minimal data set.

Would you agree?

It’s impossible to say. Did you see that chunk of carbon. I didn’t measure it but it was way bigger than .003” where most shoulders get bumped. I bet closer to .010”.

Here’s my questions, why not clean a rifle before season? Is there a downside in your eyes? Assuming you have time to foul the barrel of course. Why push it? Why take a chance of getting something in there, whether it’s carbon or something foreign? I just can’t think of a good reason, unless one falls into the “cleaning damages the rifling” crowd, which is dumb.

 

[Ucsdryder]

It appears you are saying the goal should be never changing a vehicles oil?!?

Unfortunately in the short term we all have to shoot with the chamber we have, not the chamber we wish we had. I can see how it would make sense for a non cleaner to send the rifle to a gunsmith and have a looser reamer run in to widen the neck and/or throat. And you thought we would never agree on anything. Lol

Hahaha don’t speak logic to him.

And of course the answer is that it was a 1 off. If I thought something got into my oil at 100 miles should I change it or run it until it explodes and then say, it was a good run and post all over the forums about how many miles I got it to like a badge of honor.

 

[Formidilosus]

I actually do enjoy technical conversations. I just enjoy them more when adults respect other’s experiences without constantly challenging them for the sake of always being right.

If that is what you think is happening, you are mistaken.
“Experience” is on a sliding scale. If @Ucsdryder stated that he is shooting thousands of rifle rounds a year- every year; and that he has 15 rifles and suppressors that with multiple different types of factory ammo will lock up in a hundred rounds, and offered to show me them- I would be curious and most likely drive to Colorado with cases of ammo in my truck to see what is happening…. Because I want to learn. However saying “this one time at band camp this thing happened, and therefore you shouldn’t play the flute” is not compelling, and it does not and should not outweigh a massive data set that says that isn’t the case.

Read my last post about changing a vehicles oil, then apply the analogy to guns. That’s what is happening with “technical” conversations. If you went to a truck forum and said your truck won’t start unless you change the oil every 100 miles and therefor your an idiot if you don’t change the oil every 100 miles, everyone would respond that you are wrong and to find the real issue.


Tiny sample sizes and ridiculously little actual experience is how the hunting and shooting world has gotten to the myth, old wives tales, and ignorance that it has. No one benefits from continuing that. Well, no one but social media feeds, gun writers, and companies.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

It’s impossible to say. Did you see that chunk of carbon. I didn’t measure it but it was way bigger than .003” where most shoulders get bumped. I bet closer to .010”.

Here’s my questions, why not clean a rifle before season? Is there a downside in your eyes? Assuming you have time to foul the barrel of course. Why push it? Why take a chance of getting something in there, whether it’s carbon or something foreign? I just can’t think of a good reason, unless one falls into the “cleaning damages the rifling” crowd, which is dumb.

I would say it’s probably because my big game “season” runs from late August to late February every year.

March-July is shooting and practice with more shooting and practice mixed in when I have a week or two break between hunts during the “season”.

My use case is probably more rare, as most guys shoot a little bit “before season” and then hunt for a month or two tops, and then the rifle goes back in the safe for months.

If something is working for a guy or gal, and they get joy out of cleaning a gun, and helps with peace of mind before a hunt or whatever, then rock on with shoving crap down your barrel.

For someone who shoots year round and hates cleaning, and has seen zero down sides yet in two years with a dozen guns, then I’d say rock on with your dirty gun.

 

[Formidilosus]

Hahaha don’t speak logic to him.

I would question whether your belief of what that word means, is the actual definition.

And of course the answer is that it was a 1 off.

It’s easy to engage in a direct conversation with me; you can ask pointed direct questions and I will respond with pointed and direct answers. Of cause, that would require a good faith discussion.

If I thought something got into my oil at 100 miles should I change it or run it until it explodes and then say, it was a good run and post all over the forums about how many miles I got it to like a badge of honor.

Can you quote a single post of mine saying that if someone has a reason to believe that massive debris or obstruction got into their action, barrel, or suppressor to not clean? That is your analogy above, and I have never stated that.

Your position has morphed from the first time you and I discussed this, and even in this thread.

So here are some pointed direct questions:

1. How many rounds a year total are you shooting suppressed?

2. What are those rifles, barrels, chambers, and cartridges?

3. What is the ammo used?

4. How long between cleanings do you go with each, and what are the results? What average number of rounds between failures are you seeing?

5. How often are you tracking the zero of those rifles, and how are you doing so? What are the results?

 

[nephewjephew]

Generally no. But, that lot could be right on the edge, and then yes- some debris or fouling could cause issues. If that’s the case, scraping the chamber might reduce pressure issues for a bit, but they’ll come back.

I'm going to get a couple of new boxes and shoot them and see what happens. If all goes well I will mix in a fresh one of the lot I have and see what happens. Is there any risk to the gun if I get some of these heavy bolts now and again trying to figure this thing out?

 

[Formidilosus]

Is there any risk to the gun if I get some of these heavy bolts now and again trying to figure this thing out?

Risk, yes. Legitimate risk- not likely.

I would try some federal or Winchester factory ammo. No sense in introducing a larger chance of a variable again with another Hornady.

 

[ElPollo]

I chuckle about these arguments. In general, if someone claims a group is out to get them or that there is some sort of overarching conspiracy, it’s generally because they are unable to logically support their own arguments.

 

[Ucsdryder]

I would say it’s probably because my big game “season” runs from late August to late February every year.

March-July is shooting and practice with more shooting and practice mixed in when I have a week or two break between hunts during the “season”.

My use case is probably more rare, as most guys shoot a little bit “before season” and then hunt for a month or two tops, and then the rifle goes back in the safe for months.

If something is working for a guy or gal, and they get joy out of cleaning a gun, and helps with peace of mind before a hunt or whatever, then rock on with shoving crap down your barrel.

For someone who shoots year round and hates cleaning, and has seen zero down sides yet in two years with a dozen guns, then I’d say rock on with your dirty gun.

Makes sense. I’ll admit my target shooting drops way off once season starts. Archery, ML, rifle, friends hunts, family hunts, it’s just too much to keep shooting, which is probably when I should be shooting the most!

That being said, starting over with a clean gun at the beginning still makes sense to me, but I actually enjoy cleaning a rifle, as long as I don’t have to do it often. Same reason I change the oil in my truck in September, even if it doesn’t need it. I will try and limit as many variables as I can.

 

[mlevimadden]

There were a lot of people seeing pressure issues and wild velocity swings with hornady's 7 PRC factory ammo a year or so ago, so I wouldn't be shocked if it spilled over to 6.5 PRC as well. I'd suspect your ammo is the most likely culprit and try another brand before taking aggressive cleaners and brushing to your chamber's throat.

I wouldn't expect it from factory ammo, but if there is lubricant on the brass or chamber walls, it can prevent the brass from sealing during firing and create additional pressure on the bolt face.

There are cheap ($60) borescopes on amazon now if you want to inspect your chamber/throat for debris or significant carbon buildup causing an issue.

Congrats on the bull!

Would you say your handloads and chamber are the root cause of the issue or do you think it’s from not cleaning for 100 rounds?

I have about 6 rifles that get shot minimum 3 days per week average, and another 6 that get shot average 1 day per week minimum. I don’t think any of those guns have been cleaned in 2 years, and 5 of them have had barrel swaps in the last 3-6 months from wearing out due to round count.

Not a single one has had a major malfunction or barrel life “lessened” by not cleaning. Does this mean everyone should not clean ever? I don’t know. Does it mean that a failure at 100 rounds can routinely happen? Not likely based on what I’ve seen, but not impossible.

Heck, in the last 12 months I’ve seen multiple samples of the most expensive bolt actions you can buy, completely fail due to a little bit of blowing dust getting into the action. Multiple times. Crap happens.

Mitigating risk is a smart strategy in my opinion, but I don’t think the use case/result here was totally due to a simple lack of cleaning. The numbers I’ve seen on a dozen guns recently would lead my thinking towards correlation does not imply causation, due to your minimal data set.

Would you agree?

Are any of the chamberings you're shooting this much without cleaning significantly overbore cartridges? I'm a few hundred rounds in on a 6.5 PRC build without cleaning but interested to hear from someone who shoots a lot more.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

There were a lot of people seeing pressure issues and wild velocity swings with hornady's 7 PRC factory ammo a year or so ago, so I wouldn't be shocked if it spilled over to 6.5 PRC as well. I'd suspect your ammo is the most likely culprit and try another brand before taking aggressive cleaners and brushing to your chamber's throat.

I wouldn't expect it from factory ammo, but if there is lubricant on the brass or chamber walls, it can prevent the brass from sealing during firing and create additional pressure on the bolt face.

There are cheap ($60) borescopes on amazon now if you want to inspect your chamber/throat for debris or significant carbon buildup causing an issue.


Are any of the chamberings you're shooting this much without cleaning significantly overbore cartridges? I'm a few hundred rounds in on a 6.5 PRC build without cleaning but interested to hear from someone who shoots a lot more.

17. HMR, 17 Mach 2, .223, 22 Creedmoor, .243, 6mm Creedmoor, .260 Rem, 6.5 CM, and .308 see the most use by far.

 

[SDHNTR]

If that is what you think is happening, you are mistaken.
“Experience” is on a sliding scale. If @Ucsdryder stated that he is shooting thousands of rifle rounds a year- every year; and that he has 15 rifles and suppressors that with multiple different types of factory ammo will lock up in a hundred rounds, and offered to show me them- I would be curious and most likely drive to Colorado with cases of ammo in my truck to see what is happening…. Because I want to learn. However saying “this one time at band camp this thing happened, and therefore you shouldn’t play the flute” is not compelling, and it does not and should not outweigh a massive data set that says that isn’t the case.

Read my last post about changing a vehicles oil, then apply the analogy to guns. That’s what is happening with “technical” conversations. If you went to a truck forum and said your truck won’t start unless you change the oil every 100 miles and therefor your an idiot if you don’t change the oil every 100 miles, everyone would respond that you are wrong and to find the real issue.


Tiny sample sizes and ridiculously little actual experience is how the hunting and shooting world has gotten to the myth, old wives tales, and ignorance that it has. No one benefits from continuing that. Well, no one but social media feeds, gun writers, and companies.

Fair enough. Nothing there I disagree with. It’s just your approach.

Look, you are a smart guy with valuable knowledge to share, I don’t think anyone disputes that fact, but your message can be lost on some due to the abrasive way in which you challenge anyone with opposing views. For your own benefit, you could dial it back.

I used to be the same way. I had to be right and would go to great lengths to prove it every opportunity I got. It cost me relationships. Then I got married to a wonderful woman, and realized there’s a better way…

 

[Mangata]

I have very same issue as OP with brand new Tikka t3x superlight 6.5 with barrel cut to 20” with AB Raptor suppressor. Shooting Hornady 147 ELDm ammunition.
Heavy bolt lift began on first box of ammo that was shot through the rifle. Issue is intermittent and if not mistaken has never occurred with a cold bore. I don’t recall that shots with heavy bolt lift after have any significant in MV or grouping.
Again, started from beginning which leads me to believe that it is unlikely a carbon ring as the culprit.
I will run some other ammo through the rifle & see if this ameliorates the problem.

 

[5811]

 

[Mangata]

View attachment 777961

 

[bojangles808]

Yes. They absolutely use different powders between lots. Since 2020 or so companies have had to use whatever powder they can get their hands on.




This is exactly what one has to do. Lot to lot variation is a thing, and often enough it is not a small difference.

Having said that, there are some ammo brands/liens that are stable lot to lot- Federal Gold Medal Match for instance.

Just realizing this. Friend and I just had a 100 fps difference between different factory 108 eldm lots. Kinda surprising at first

 

[nephewjephew]

Picked up some ammo this evening Winchester power point 129gr, eldx 143, eldm 140 and brought a new box of the same lot of eldm 147 and went to shoot. Shooting with a scythe, shot 5 rds with no time in between only stopping to reload the mag. Went in a round robin for two rounds of each.
1st
Win pp - 5/5 no problems
eldx - 1-3 no problems 4 and 5 heavy-ish, could cycle without breaking position but required more effort
eldm 140 - 5/5 no problems
eldm 147 - 1&2 no problems next 3 heavy

2nd
win pp - 5/5
eldm 140 - 5/5
eldm 147 - 1&2 good 3&5 heavy 4 heavy-ish
eldx - 1-3 good 4&5 heavy

then put 5 more win pp 4/5 with #4 being less than heavy-ish but more than normal


If it is a carbon ring it would do it every time?

@Formidilosus does that give you any more usable info?

 

[The Guide]

Just realizing this. Friend and I just had a 100 fps difference between different factory 108 eldm lots. Kinda surprising at first

I bought 2 boxes last year of 6 ARC 103 that were super accurate. Found a case on sale this year and bought it. Old lot was 2724 fps new lot I bought a case of is 2610 fps. Still accurate but slow. Makes me want to use these loads up and handload the 108's for my rifle.

Jay

 

[Mtndawger]

3 years ago, in the depths of the factory ammo shortage, I acquired 4 boxes of nosler 140 ballistic tip blems for my new 280AI. First time to the range to break it in and I had heavy bolt lift on enough of them that I became uncomfortable with continuing. Being new to the custom rifle and reloading game, I thought my rifle had a chamber issue. It turned out that within each of those boxes of ammo the cartridge headspace varied by 2.1335 to 2.1355. My chamber measures 2.1340. Semi custom ammo from another vendor all measured 2.1320- 2.1325. This wasn’t an original 280 ackley chamber vs sammi chamber issue. The factory ammo was technically in spec but inconsistent enough as to be dangerous in by rifle. Get the tools to measure your chamber and your ammo and you may find out what the issue is rather than speculating about it is my recommendation.

 

[Jason Snyder]

@nephewjephew did you measure the cases on the different factory ammos to see if it was the same?