HAMMER Bullets Performance on Game

[Marbles]

Not sure why anybody would shoot a hammer…unless you’re required by law. The design calls for a caliber size entrance and a caliber size exit and significant shedding of weight. If I could describe my least desirable performance in a bullet, this would be it. 2 caliber sized holes with significant loss of weight.

None of this says hammers are good bullets, I have not used them.

Velocity (roughly above 2000 fps) results in a temporary wound cavity large enough to damage elastic tissue. Most rifles, regardless of bullet, cause more damage that a caliber sized hole.

In low velocity rounds (most handguns), the only damage is in the permanent wound channel, and this is always smaller than final bullet diameter because tissue stretches. The more pointed a low velocity projectile, the smaller the permanent wound channel.

Hard cast handgun bullets have a flat meplat to get better penetration while having larger permanent wound channels. The fat meplat also improves stability in tissue, which increases penetration.

So, from a low velocity perspective, the hammer design should maximize permanent wound channel size will providing good stability for maximum penetration. From a wounding perspective, this can be good or bad, a bullet that goes through lung tissue sideways will do more damage, but if it turns sideways too soon it might not make it to the vitals.

In short, theory must be verified with results to be substantiated. That, said, life is too short to test everything, so theory is certainly a valid place to start.

An interesting aside were theory failed me. I butchered a pig recently. Figured a 230 gr gold dot from 4 inch barreled 45 at 6 inches would get to the brain. Three shots behind the ear going for the opposite eye latter and the pig is still standing. 4th shot was to the top of the head and dropped it. I figured I was an idiot and had my shot angles wrong. However, I found my bullets up against the back of the skull, they simply cound not go through the inch of bone.

The one in the top of the head had thinner bones to go through, it still did not travel more than 6 or 7 inches.

 

[Ucsdryder]

None of this says hammers are good bullets, I have not used them.

Velocity (roughly above 2000 fps) results in a temporary wound cavity large enough to damage elastic tissue. Most rifles, regardless of bullet, cause more damage that a caliber sized hole.

In low velocity rounds (most handguns), the only damage is in the permanent wound channel, and this is always smaller than final bullet diameter because tissue stretches. The more pointed a low velocity projectile, the smaller the permanent wound channel.

Hard cast handgun bullets have a flat meplat to get better penetration while having larger permanent wound channels. The fat meplat also improves stability in tissue, which increases penetration.

So, from a low velocity perspective, the hammer design should maximize permanent wound channel size will providing good stability for maximum penetration. From a wounding perspective, this can be good or bad, a bullet that goes through lung tissue sideways will do more damage, but if it turns sideways too soon it might not make it to the vitals.

In short, theory must be verified with results to be substantiated. That, said, life is too short to test everything, so theory is certainly a valid place to start.

An interesting aside were theory failed me. I butchered a pig recently. Figured a 230 gr gold dot from 4 inch barreled 45 at 6 inches would get to the brain. Three shots behind the ear going for the opposite eye latter and the pig is still standing. 4th shot was to the top of the head and dropped it. I figured I was an idiot and had my shot angles wrong. However, I found my bullets up against the back of the skull, they simply cound not go through the inch of bone.

The one in the top of the head had thinner bones to go through, it still did not travel more than 6 or 7 inches.

Sorry I guess I should clarify. Yes, I agree about the wound channel, but my issues with a caliber size entrance and exit is the resulting blood trail is close to zero.

 

[z987k]

What is your definition of quickly? Can you give more details on your experience with hammers? animal, caliber, distance, pass through, etc...

Bear, Moose, sheep. All have taken longer than 15mins to die with lung shots. 50-350 yards. 162AH from a 3006. At that point you have to walk up and finish them if they're laying there.
It's not just hammers. Every copper bullet I've put into the lungs takes forever to kill them. The rapid blood loss, which is how animals die just isn't happening without hitting the heart or arteries directly. I've had similar results from all the copper bullets I've tried.

I just don't consider a lung shot a good option anymore. With copper, imo, the high shoulder is the best shot. And if you miss into the lungs you're going to need to shoot it again even if it's laying down, but it's likely there will be some tracking involved.

 

[TraderMike]

Varget. Happy to PM some data..it’s a hot load that I plan on backing off

definitely; sent you a PM

 

[35WhelenAI]

If you miss into the lungs you're going to have to shoot it again anyway? My experience as well as hundreds of thousands of others, shows definitively otherwise.

15 minutes to die from a lung shot with copper? Put holes in both lungs and they're done with required expansion velocity at any range you've listed. I know it comes across as critical as it doesn't jive in the hunting I've done and many others have done.

Which is it, they die after 15 minutes or they have to be shot again? Those statements themselves are contradictory. There doesn't seem to be any middle ground. By the way you've posted that says it's taken 15 minutes or required a follow up shot while they're laying there with copper. I don't see an indication you've had anything but those experiences with many different styles of copper projectiles.

Very interesting. My 30 years of field experience shooting copper since 1992 is the polar opposite. 15 elk, 8 pronghorn, 6 mule deer and 7 whitetails, all but one with copper. I had one copper shot that, no pun intended, I could find no hide nor hair. Early 1990s broadside into a muley doe, short range. I'd venture to say many hunters using non-copper bullets have had the same experience (of losing an animal regardless of range) if they have hunted long enough.

 

[MojoTX]

If you miss into the lungs you're going to have to shoot it again anyway? My experience as well as hundreds of thousands of others, shows definitively otherwise.

15 minutes to die from a lung shot with copper? Put holes in both lungs and they're done with required expansion velocity at any range you've listed. I know it comes across as critical as it doesn't jive in the hunting I've done and many others have done.

Which is it, they die after 15 minutes or they have to be shot again? Those statements themselves are contradictory. There doesn't seem to be any middle ground. By the way you've posted that says it's taken 15 minutes or required a follow up shot while they're laying there with copper. I don't see an indication you've had anything but those experiences with many different styles of copper projectiles.

Very interesting. My 30 years of field experience shooting copper since 1992 is the polar opposite. 15 elk, 8 pronghorn, 6 mule deer and 7 whitetails, all but one with copper. I had one copper shot that, no pun intended, I could find no hide nor hair. Early 1990s broadside into a muley doe, short range. I'd venture to say many hunters using non-copper bullets have had the same experience (of losing an animal regardless of range) if they have hunted long enough.

I don’t think he knows where the lungs are…

 

[Pacific_Fork]

These topics are always fascinating. Nothing but bang flops for me with copper through both lungs on dozens of large game including elk and moose over the past 15 years. My main goal is a double lung shot for a quick kill and little meat loss.

 

[Ucsdryder]

These topics are always fascinating. Nothing but bang flops for me with copper through both lungs on dozens of large game including elk and moose over the past 15 years. My main goal is a double lung shot for a quick kill and little meat loss.

I think I’m more fascinated by someone seeing dozens of bang flops on copper lung shots. A bang flop = drop in its tracks. To say you’ve had nothing but bang flops for 15 years on dozens of shots?! So you’re saying not a single animal has run any distance in 15 years on lung shots with coppers? Are you using a 500 nitro!? I smell something fishy…

 

[Ryan Avery]

I think I’m more fascinated by someone seeing dozens of bang flops on copper lung shots. A bang flop = drop in its tracks. To say you’ve had nothing but bang flops for 15 years on dozens of shots?! So you’re saying not a single animal has run any distance in 15 years on lung shots with coppers? Are you using a 500 nitro!? I smell something fishy…

Maybe they were all Dik-dik

I agree a straight lung shot is a long way from anything CNS with a bullet that doesn't have a great wound channel to begin with.

 

[Ucsdryder]

Maybe they were all Dik-dik

I agree a straight lung shot is a long way from anything CNS with a bullet that doesn't have a great wound channel to begin with.

I blew a boiling ball through a buck antelope 3 years ago with 180eldms. He had 20 feet of insides dragging behind him and he still ran 90 yards. It was unbelievable. I would have taken a picture but it was too gruesome.

 

[sndmn11]

I think I’m more fascinated by someone seeing dozens of bang flops on copper lung shots. A bang flop = drop in its tracks. To say you’ve had nothing but bang flops for 15 years on dozens of shots?! So you’re saying not a single animal has run any distance in 15 years on lung shots with coppers? Are you using a 500 nitro!? I smell something fishy…

We will see! That deer I shot with the 85gr last year went nowhere on his own.

Between small child UCSDryder, @KickinNDishin with 145gr lrx, you @Ucsdryder yourself with eldm MAGNUMs, K with 140 berger from a creed, C with 156 berger from a PRC, @Alinrut sends accubonds, we can have a necropsy party.

Try not to shoot everything twice.

Im thinking about taking that 85gr pink.gun to qualify for the elk cull hunt. I do think lead bullets cause significantly more trauma, I wonder how much is needed. I'd like to shoot through the Barnes I have for my 30-06 and then pick up some Bergers for it, but I've also never not killed what I shot at and never had an issue with losing meat.

 

[wapitibob]

Nope, no trauma from a Hammer.

 

[JakeSCH]

I would say hammers are not near as bad as you think they are but not near as good as many (including me in the past) say they are.

I've taken 7 elk (3 bulls, 4 cows), 2 mule deer, and 1 bear with them. 5 bang flops, 1 spine shot, 3 went 20 to 30 yards, and 1 needed 5 shots due me loosing my composure. The final shot went through lungs and into offside shoulder and put him right down.

1 of the 10 animals had no blood trail, cow elk where I blew up the front knuckle into the lungs. She went 30 yards and died. Another cow hit a single lung and the liver and went 30 yards and tipped. The bull that took 5 shots (4 of them only created a tiny blood trail).

6 animals were taken with 181 HH out of a 300 WM and the other 4 with a 260 HH out of 338 RUM.

 

[Pacific_Fork]

I think I’m more fascinated by someone seeing dozens of bang flops on copper lung shots. A bang flop = drop in its tracks. To say you’ve had nothing but bang flops for 15 years on dozens of shots?! So you’re saying not a single animal has run any distance in 15 years on lung shots with coppers? Are you using a 500 nitro!? I smell something fishy…

Pretty much. I wouldn’t see the point in makes this up for the hell of it. That fishy smell is likely coming from your hipster stash

I’ll admit it is rare, but I can’t remember the last time I had an animal run and the need to any kind of tracking from the rifle. Don’t y’all get your whitey tighties in a tangle but I shoot a 6.5x284 wayyyy before the 6.5 was man bun fad. 3,000 fps 127 gr LRX. Pick any yardage out to 700 I’ve done it. Furthest elk 510. Closets elk 30 yards.

Moose, elk, deer, DIITs. Never had one get away, never had one take more than a step. Shot placement and a good bullet is key.

It’s funny how caliber/bullets are always so controversial. Not saying you’re making it that way either. But these debates and anecdotes are endless on the internet.

Furthermore I watched my friend shoot a tiny blacktail with a 180 gr 300WM 3 f’n times, blood everywhere. We searched for 2 full days and never recovered it. No BS, just poor shot placement.

 

[Ucsdryder]

Pretty much. I wouldn’t see the point in makes this up for the hell of it. That fishy smell is likely coming from your hipster stash

I’ll admit it is rare, but I can’t remember the last time I had an animal run and the need to any kind of tracking from the rifle. Don’t y’all get your whitey tighties in a tangle but I shoot a 6.5x284 wayyyy before the 6.5 was man bun fad. 3,000 fps 127 gr LRX. Pick any yardage out to 700 I’ve done it. Furthest elk 510. Closets elk 30 yards.

Moose, elk, deer, DIITs. Never had one get away, never had one take more than a step. Shot placement and a good bullet is key.

It’s funny how caliber/bullets are always so controversial. Not saying you’re making it that way either. But these debates and anecdotes are endless on the internet.

Furthermore I watched my friend shoot a tiny blacktail with a 180 gr 300WM 3 f’n times, blood everywhere. We searched for 2 full days and never recovered it. No BS, just poor shot placement.

Hipster? Lol

Dozens of animals that didn’t take 1 step from deer to moose all with lung shots (not shoulder) with a 6.5 and a hammer. I just want to make sure you’re standing by this tale. Not one step. Bang, flop. Come on bro. How many trees have you planted by hand? How many does have you killed?

Would you like to change your statement to “plenty of bang flops” or maybe “my fair share of bang flops” or maybe even “a bunch of bang flops”. I’ll give you a pass to go change it to something more realistic.

 

[wapitibob]

The Buck whose heart is shown above went 30 yards. I’ve seen an Antelope go almost 100 and it’s heart looked the same.

 

[Ucsdryder]

The Buck whose heart is shown above went 30 yards. I’ve seen an Antelope go almost 100 and its heart looked the same.

I figured that was a heart but damn! As Ryan said, in my experience the only way to have a guaranteed bang flop is from a CNS shot or a spine shot, which isn’t really a flop, more like flop around. A lung shot can produce a bang flop, but pretty rare in my experience.

 

[wapitibob]

I’ve had one bang flop; Antelope broadside at 300 with a 180 Berger from a 7stw.
A little too high of a shot that cut a softball size groove thru it removing the spine, back strap, and hide.

 

[Pacific_Fork]

Hipster? Lol

Dozens of animals that didn’t take 1 step from deer to moose all with lung shots (not shoulder) with a 6.5 and a hammer. I just want to make sure you’re standing by this tale. Not one step. Bang, flop. Come on bro. How many trees have you planted by hand? How many does have you killed?

Would you like to change your statement to “plenty of bang flops” or maybe “my fair share of bang flops” or maybe even “a bunch of bang flops”. I’ll give you a pass to go change it to something more realistic.

My post says LRX not the hammer. And yea I don’t do shoulder shots.

Not sure what trees and does have to do with anything.

I consider an animal taking one step, or staying within mere feet of where they stood soaking up a bullet, as bang flop. So maybe you got me on the semantics or your own definition of bang flop. I don’t really give a shit or have anything to prove on the internet, and I’m fully aware of exaggeration in our community. So let’s just get back to the thread topic.

 

[JFK]

Anyone with experience with the newer hammer hht tipped bullet?