Group applications under Colorado's new hybrid draw?

[Hnthrdr]

Also don’t worry I’m sure the hunting fool dude who helped craft this cluster will write some articles to clear it up, memberships start at 300$ a year

 

[Jethro]

for $100 I’ll do it and even make up some NM predictive odds for anyone interested

 

[Hnthrdr]

for $100 I’ll do it and even make up some NM predictive odds for anyone interested

What a bargain sign me up?! What does the Gila with 2nd archery season with no outfitter look like these days?! Am I at .01% or .03% ?!

 

[resident vs nonresident]

Agreed. I too oppose point averaging for the same reason. Colorado’s lenient return policy would make point averaging especially ripe for abuse…build up a bank of points in your wife’s name, use her points to help draw yourself a tag, send her tag back during the early return period, get her tag money refunded and her points restored and use her points to do the same thing again next year.

Right. I was going on basis that either whole party keeps tags or everyone has to return them (does AZ allow point protection and return of some in group and not all?).
But you’re right if they allowed let’s say 1 of 2 in prty to return a tag and get PP back it’s create such a shit storm. Everyone would do the same as I’d just keep growing my few accounts up and keep hunting higher PP type tag every year at minimal expense. So any new Hunter coming in would never catch up to astronomical point creek.
NO Averaging!!!

 

[Hnthrdr]

Right. I was going on basis that either whole party keeps tags or everyone has to return them (does AZ allow point protection and return of some in group and not all?).
But you’re right if they allowed let’s say 1 of 2 in prty to return a tag and get PP back it’s create such a shit storm. Everyone would do the same as I’d just keep growing my few accounts up and keep hunting higher PP type tag every year at minimal expense. So any new Hunter coming in would never catch up to astronomical point creek.
NO Averaging!!!

In AZ I know some outfitters who do just this, will have a high point holder put in with clients, point holder has point guard and pulls out. The deal is you can’t use point guard more than 3 years in a row

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Right. I was going on basis that either whole party keeps tags or everyone has to return them (does AZ allow point protection and return of some in group and not all?).
But you’re right if they allowed let’s say 1 of 2 in prty to return a tag and get PP back it’s create such a shit storm. Everyone would do the same as I’d just keep growing my few accounts up and keep hunting higher PP type tag every year at minimal expense. So any new Hunter coming in would never catch up to astronomical point creek.
NO Averaging!!!

AFAIK in Colorado returns are handled individually, even if the tag being returned was drawn as part of a group application. I don’t know how that situation is handled in other states.

 

[Hnthrdr]

AFAIK in Colorado returns are handled individually, even if the tag being returned was drawn as part of a group application. I don’t know how that situation is handled in other states.

Correct

 

[resident vs nonresident]

AFAIK in Colorado returns are handled individually, even if the tag being returned was drawn as part of a group application. I don’t know how that situation is handled in other states.

Yup that would make it that much worse. I never applied as a group so honestly never even checked. But this would 100% create extra point builders only paid by significant others/friends etc for personal gain.
As I said earlier I’d 100% do this under at least 4people to make sure I never hunt 0pp unit again

 

[Chad E]

In AZ I know some outfitters who do just this, will have a high point holder put in with clients, point holder has point guard and pulls out. The deal is you can’t use point guard more than 3 years in a row

I was under the impression you could only point guard once per species. The second time you had to keep the tag and the point guard starts over with your new set of points going forward.

 

[Hnthrdr]

I was under the impression you could only point guard once per species. The second time you had to keep the tag and the point guard starts over with your new set of points going forward.

Sounds right

 

[ColoradoV]

While I sympathize with people who really want to group up and average, as a whole it’s a terrible system and will drive more point creep.
I’m gonna throw hypothetical out there: I’m CO resident. I would buy points for my wife, kid, n few friends who don’t hunt but won’t care if they had an account that I managed and paid for.
As a resident it’ll cost me roughly (at current rate): $60 to build elk/deer/pronghorn points per person. That’s nearly same as single elk point in WY. I’ll gladly pay that under 4-6 people’s accounts which will ensure me that I never hunt 0pp tag ever again by averaging their points and rotating every 4-6years through my group.
Eating cost of Reaident tags is also not much for whoever I apply as a group with.
People do this in all states where averaging is allowed and it’s really screwing over average Joe hunter trying to play the point game solo.
So while few people who are honest may not be happy, as a whole system we’re better off NOT allowing any point averaging
Wouldn’t you agree?

What I am saying is that with the changes coming in 2028 it is actually laughable to say point averaging will have any effect on point creep…

If you kept up on these changes at all it is very clear averaging of points is not going to happen.. No chance..

Now a point creep explosion due to these ignorant draw changes coming in 2028 is going to happen.. It seems silly to argue a hypothetical scenario with 0 chance at coming to fruition…

Wouldn’t you agree?

 

[MallardSX2]

I’m hoping they average points instead of the current system of lowest point number.

There is no way they are doing this. They know how ripe for abuse that type of system is.

 

[MallardSX2]

Now a point creep explosion due to these ignorant draw changes coming in 2028 is going to happen..

I agree 100%. Point creep is going to EXPLODE in Colorado and any predicatability just went out the freaking window.

 

[MallardSX2]

One thing I didn't see was the rules on turning back in tags.

When a tag gets turned back in on the RANDOM side of the (50/50) draw will that tag go to the next person in line that was in the RANDOM portion of the drawing or will that tag go to the next person in line in the order of PREFRENCE.

I don't recall hearing how they were going to handle that and IMHO this is a big deal because A LOT of tags get turned back in........

I was rather happy to see that the tags that get turned back in will maintain R/NR status. That in itself is a huge win for NR's. Most tags that are turned in are NR tags.

 

[Hnthrdr]

One thing I didn't see was the rules on turning back in tags.

When a tag gets turned back in on the RANDOM side of the (50/50) draw will that tag go to the next person in line that was in the RANDOM portion of the drawing or will that tag go to the next person in line in the order of PREFRENCE.

I don't recall hearing how they were going to handle that and IMHO this is a big deal because A LOT of tags get turned back in........

I was rather happy to see that the tags that get turned back in will maintain R/NR status. That in itself is a huge win for NR's. Most tags that are turned in are NR tags.

They kid of left a lot of questions unanswered. If a tag makes it past the optional next in line… and it’s a NR tag but it’s mid season of a 1st or 4th rifle hunt, those will go unsold I guess? I’m sure they will figure it all out but what a cluster…

 

[resident vs nonresident]

What I am saying is that with the changes coming in 2028 it is actually laughable to say point averaging will have any effect on point creep…

If you kept up on these changes at all it is very clear averaging of points is not going to happen.. No chance..

Now a point creep explosion due to these ignorant draw changes coming in 2028 is going to happen.. It seems silly to argue a hypothetical scenario with 0 chance at coming to fruition…

Wouldn’t you agree?

100% agree that Points got devalued in more than half for all the top tier units. My guess in half for mid tier units and for 0-3pp units it probably won’t make much difference
100% agree that predictably for mid tier or high tier units just went out the window. Lack of predictability is what i really don’t like about new spilts.
Now when it comes specifically to point Averaging effects I’m not sure we’re in agreement. If they were to allow point averaging it would ADD to already high point creep. And “not a drop in a bucket effect but more like 32iz big gulp in a bucket effect if I had to guess”. No hypotheticals but if point averaging was allowed: I (and most of my hunting friends) all would be building points for our significant others and friends who don’t hunt. So every year I would be able to Average Up with one of those accounts this driving point creep even further. This has been shown to have major point creep effect in other states that allow averaging. I do think CO did it right on this matter by NOT Averaging
Edit: specifically to your point of arguing over something that has zero chance of coming to fruition? We’re not arguing we’re having a friendly conversation . But I don’t think chances are zero. Just like saying a year ago that COmwoukd never go to 50/50 split, yet it happened. And averaging subject has come up in those CPW discussions many times so it’s a valid topic to discuss and express our points for or against it. And I’m glad as it seems vast majority are against it
to friendly conversations

 

[resident vs nonresident]

One thing I didn't see was the rules on turning back in tags.

When a tag gets turned back in on the RANDOM side of the (50/50) draw will that tag go to the next person in line that was in the RANDOM portion of the drawing or will that tag go to the next person in line in the order of PREFRENCE.

I don't recall hearing how they were going to handle that and IMHO this is a big deal because A LOT of tags get turned back in........

I was rather happy to see that the tags that get turned back in will maintain R/NR status. That in itself is a huge win for NR's. Most tags that are turned in are NR tags.

Maybe someone can answer this as I’m still unsure. But let’s say I didn’t draw my 1st choice, but got my 2nd or 3rd choice tag. Then 1st choice tag gets turned in and goes to me as I’m next inline automatically, but does that mean it automatically cancels out whatever was issued to me as 2/3/4th choice? Or do I have to NOT have a valid tag to be considered as next inline line?

 

[Hnthrdr]

Maybe someone can answer this as I’m still unsure. But let’s say I didn’t draw my 1st choice, but got my 2nd or 3rd choice tag. Then 1st choice tag gets turned in and goes to me as I’m next inline automatically, but does that mean it automatically cancels out whatever was issued to me as 2/3/4th choice? Or do I have to NOT have a valid tag to be considered as next inline lin

I’m guessing if you have an A list tag you will not be eligible for the next in line. Maybe if you drew a B list then you would still be eligible. Once again lots of stuff needs to be cleared up…

 

[MallardSX2]

I’m guessing if you have an A list tag you will not be eligible for the next in line. Maybe if you drew a B list then you would still be eligible. Once again lots of stuff needs to be cleared up…

I agree. When you get an A-list tag I am sure it bumps you out of the eligibility for any other A-list tag that may get turned in.

The way this will be implemented it is sort of going to make people $hit or get off the pot regarding tags in Colorado. Specifically, NR's who now don't have OTC archery options. It is going to be a very interesting dynamic in 2028 and I can't WAIT to see the applicant behavior.

 

[Hnthrdr]

I am on the fence about the return list opt in I kind of feel like it will be huge and basically eliminate the leftover or no one will use it and it will seem like little to no change. I could see a lot of people not using it since it will take your points for that tag… not sure that even year to year there will be much predictability anymore. One year everyone could go NW corner the next maybe gunnison basin ect… ?