Gritty Bowmen-Montana Wild

[Gumbo]

I listened to enough of this to podcast to feel like I had heard enough. I've been there and fished for bull trout with the catch card prior to the regulations being "clarified". If you understand how the Montana fish regs are organized by district and waterbody in terms of special regulations and general regulations there is no way you could misinterpret them. The literature with the catch card was pretty clear too. And if you don't understand either you should ask, ignorance is simply negligence. Only the mainstem South Fork is open, I don't see how it could be misinterpreted. Just because a map shows other tributaries for reference doesn't mean they are open for bull trout fishing unless it is explicitly stated in the regs as an exception to general regulations or is explicitly stated in the catch card info. If they did treat those fish like has been asserted, that is also a violation of Montana law. I was a little taken aback by the way Mr. Call and the Montana Wild duo were so able to rationalize violations of the law. Have I ever broken a game law, hell yes, I was an unscrupulous killer of everything that moved as a pre-teen with a .22 and shotgun. Do I do it now? No because it just doesn't feel right. Even throwing the exact same streamers I throw on the east side of the divide where bullies aren't present is an ethical conundrum on the west side. If browns are present, like in the mainstem Blackfoot, no problem. But would I really go to cutthroat tribs and throw streamers in hopes of catching a slightly larger class of cutt? To be honest, no, which is why I don't do it, I know what is in my heart even though it could be rationalized as targeting bigger cutts. I try not to judge lest I be judged, but the rationalization just kills me. And I am so disappointed in the direction of Gritty, I used to enjoy it, now the total commercialized aspect and pretentiousness just destroys the show. I don't know Brian from Adam and I'm sure he is a great guy, but his demeanor on the show has changed so much I can't listen to it, so I don't unless it is something I am very interested in like the Montana Wild poaching backstory.

 

[wapitibob]

I quit listening a while back.

 

[Trial153]

they lost me when it became an infomercial... can't weight in on the MW situation as I didn't listen to the show. that said .....money and ethics are sometime like oil and water.

 

[dotman]

I find it funny guys hold stuff against Brian, I get where Brian is coming from but seriously Brian is at least talking to these guys and exposing many people to hunting in a great way. Much like rokslide, his service is free, if you don't like it I would invest in him because he has a great following and truthfully anyone that can put up with Aron and remain humble is a good dude in my eyes. I find it funny guys say he has too many sponsors etc, he has to feed his family people and he has a great product but no it isn't perfect every time, but show me one that is. I listen as I have time but I have yet to not have a smile on my face while listening, same goes for Randy N!

 

[Boudreaux]

I think one thing they (including Brian) seems to be hung up on is that poaching requires a dead animal or fish. This is not true, poaching is the "Take" of an animal, take can be lethal or nonlethal. In falconry one can "poach" birds, the bird is still alive, but it was obtained illegally. Therefore, it is still poaching, they seem very hung up on this definition, they say three or four times "no bull trout was killed".

They were filming a bull trout video, so targeting them, in a tributary that was not legal to be fished for bull trout, that is poaching.
As for the signing of the catch cards, I could see that has an honest mistake as long as fish were accounted.
If the allegations of them "mishandling fish" for video purposes was true, while not illegal, just stupid. I could see how and why they got the book threw at them and then beat with it while they were down. Targeting a threatened fish in a closed tributary then "mishandling" the fish just to increase the video content, just ignorant. It like all these morons taking selfies with various animal and resulting in them stressing or dieing.

They poached, paid the fine, move on. I know some guys that getting convicted and losing their licenses changed them, they are some great sportsmans now.

Thanks,
Boswell

 

[DRP]

Brian and Aron,
Thank you for doing what you do.

Stay Gritty!

 

[COlineman78]

I'm not completely through the episode yet, but I see valid points from both Brian and Eric here. One thing to remember is that these guys had only been fishing for 4 years or less when a lot of this footage was taken, so they were still very new to the game; not an excuse but something to remember when comparing them to Rinella and others who themselves have admitted to doing stupid and illegal stuff when it was new to them as well.

Maybe the over-handling is addressed later in the podcast, but from what I've heard so far the differences between the official state press release and MW's account on the podcast are quite large and I would have expected you (Brian) to push them on #1) the improper/over-handling issue and #2) The claims by the FWS that they found videos of them targeting bull trout in other tributaries that can't be explained away by misreading the regs. Now, I have buddies who don't really fish all that much that are terrible with their handling of fish and if inexperience is the excuse than so be it.

The excuse that they didn't kill anything is a poor one IMO; it does give me a little solace but would you want someone who put on video that they were out trying to hunt say a bald eagle but never actually killed one to get off scot-free just because nothing died? Let's say someone went on a sheep hunt with a tranq gun without a license because they couldn't draw a tag; is that okay because nothing died?

I do agree that the permit process is antiquated and needs to be modernized now that you don't need a crew of 10 people to film a hunt and as someone who knows how dealing with the government can be, I wouldn't hold it against any filmmaker or individual who got in trouble for breaking those laws and I would in fact most likely jump on board in defending them, so I think that part of the conversation is a non-issue.

I also agree that any law enforcement officer could find something wrong with almost anyone if they wanted to and it does happen and people get screwed all the time. Also, people do take plea deals all the time because it will be cheaper in the long run and/or they just want the whole ordeal to be over. However, based on the press release (I will provide the relevant section below), it appeared that this was a regular occurrence instead of an isolated incident. I get it, we all screw up; take your lumps and move on. I wonder if they feel it will do more damage to their image by doing that, but I would bet that it wouldn't as people would stop talking about it.

The catch card thing; meh... I get it we all hate paperwork and as long as the biologists got all the information who cares. The reason it happened is pretty stupid too, but it's a waste of time to discuss; especially since they didn't get charged with it in the end. I agree that this is a letter of the law vs intent of the law thing and they followed the intent even though it shouldn't have been that hard to follow the letter.

As far as your point Brian about over-handling vs overexertion by using intentionally small tackle; I see no difference in it at all. I think that intentionally using too small of gear to challenge yourself, especially with fish like trout and salmon that are prone to deadloss, should be against the law and is certainly unethical. I once saw a video on youtube of a guy in the UK catching a 30lb+ rainbow on a 3wt fly rod, I assume to prove he could.

I listened to the podcast not having known anything about the situation or read the state's release and I too was on the 'they got screwed' boat. Now having read it, I find it hard to believe that the state would make up the fact that they were targeting bull trout in other tributaries and mishandling fish and am now quite skeptical of the whole thing. After having read it I can now see where Eric is coming from in saying that it sounded like excuses (that also sound like blatant lies) immediately following any sort of acknowledgement/admission of guilt.

Arnold contacted Sommers and Brown and advised them of his findings and asked for their assistance in investigating Montana Wild. Sommers obtained Search Warrants for the Montana Wild business and 5 computers, 13 hard drives, 2 cell phones, and other items were seized for analysis during the service of the search warrant. Sommers found over 2200 videos pertaining to the South Fork Flathead/Bob Marshall Wilderness fishing trip that occurred in July 2013; and videos of other trips where they were intentionally fishing for bull trout on the North Fork Blackfoot River and Spotted Bear River. Numerous videos showed the Boughton’s and Anthony Von Ruden intentionally fishing for bull trout in tributaries, such as Youngs Creek, White River, Big Salmon, and Little Salmon Creeks; these streams are closed to fishing for bull trout.Sommers notes that the fishing violations that took place on the South Fork Flathead River and its tributaries could have devastating impacts on the bull trout populations based on the over handling issue in which some fish were handled for up to 12 minutes or longer after they were in the net. In one instance a bull trout was caught, netted, handled and released (with the hook still attached) only to be fished again for underwater filming, concluding with the fish being netted, handled and released again.

 

[Foldem]

Guys, honest question.... Many people catch and release kokanee in the Gunnison river every fall. I knew you couldn't keep them, but this conversation got me thinking so I double checked the regs:

FROM THE CONFLUENCE OF THE EAST AND
TAYLOR RIVERS DOWNSTREAM TO THE STANDING
WATER LINE OF BLUE MESA RESERVOIR,
INCLUDING ALL TRIBUTARY CANALS AND
DIVERSIONS:
1. Taking kokanee prohibited Aug. 1–Oct 31.
2. Snagging kokanee permitted Nov. 1–Dec. 31.

Is intentionally fishing for and releasing kokanee poaching?

Thanks,

Kevin

 

[ChrisS]

Is intentionally fishing for ...

Can be a gray area depending on the state's interpretation, but I view it as illegal as do some states I am familiar with. In my state, it is illegal to target a fish out of season (good job Facebook and Instagram!). People have been fined for catching and taking pictures of fish caught out of season.

Due to the increasing trend of fishermen catching "out-of-season" fish and posting pictures of their catches on Facebook and other social media, the state Department of Environmental Conservation has put a new fishing regulation in effect that makes the practice a "ticketable offense."

"A person may not fish for a species (even if immediately released) during the closed season for that species on a given water. Fish caught during the closed season must be unhooked and released immediately. They may not be handled for any other purpose, including taking a picture."

 

[Hunter Sargent]

I'm not surprised at all, and can totally understand Eric's point of view on this. When the regs are as crazy as they are, and written with a large amount of grey area, mistakes can and will happen. The only thing they really screwed up was not turning themselves in as soon as they realized there was a violation.

We all were (or are) young and dumb at some point, and have made mistakes too. These guys just happened to get crucified for theirs, at a time when they were new to the sport and naive to the complexity (and absurdity) of game laws.

 

[durangobrad]

Guys, honest question.... Many people catch and release kokanee in the Gunnison river every fall. I knew you couldn't keep them, but this conversation got me thinking so I double checked the regs:

FROM THE CONFLUENCE OF THE EAST AND
TAYLOR RIVERS DOWNSTREAM TO THE STANDING
WATER LINE OF BLUE MESA RESERVOIR,
INCLUDING ALL TRIBUTARY CANALS AND
DIVERSIONS:
1. Taking kokanee prohibited Aug. 1–Oct 31.
2. Snagging kokanee permitted Nov. 1–Dec. 31.

Is intentionally fishing for and releasing kokanee poaching?

Thanks,

Kevin

TAKING them is illegal. That would be like saying that fishing on any stretch of a river that is catch and release only is poaching?

 

[kicker338]

I've read a lot of these fish and game violation threads and they pretty much go the same way. One side says throw the book at them and the other defends them. Most of the time I agree with the defenders, interesting to see how the " throw the book at them" guys become very self righteous in condemning someone. The defenders tend to be a little more understanding that there may be 2 sides to a story. One of the biggest things I've learned is I will never be involved in a filmed hunt period.

 

[-bowfreak-]

I would really like to read all of the comments between tips and Brian but in the internet age I'm good for about 2 paragraphs max.

I listened to the podcast, had no prior bias as I had no idea about this situation, and found their side of the story plausible. I also don't see it as a big deal regardless of the situation. Even if they blatantly caught the fish, none were harmed. Pay your fine, do your time or whatever and then go on with life. They didn't drown puppies or beat children.

 

[Foldem]

from the Colorado Revised Statutes:

(43) "Take" means to acquire possession of wildlife; but such term shall not include the
accidental wounding or killing of wildlife by a motor vehicle, vessel, or train

(34) "Possession" means either actual or constructive possession of or any control over the object referred to

Not a lawyer but it seems pretty grey to me...

 

[durangobrad]

I would really like to read all of the comments between tips and Brian but in the internet age I'm good for about 2 paragraphs max.

I listened to the podcast, had no prior bias as I had no idea about this situation, and found their side of the story plausible. I also don't see it as a big deal regardless of the situation. Even if they blatantly caught the fish, none were harmed. Pay your fine, do your time or whatever and then go on with life. They didn't drown puppies or beat children.

We cant keep saying that "No fish were harmed" even with perfect catch and release techniques fish still die. Playing them multiple times in and out of the net, back on the reel, etc that kill rate just goes up.....

 

[-bowfreak-]

We cant keep saying that "No fish were harmed" even with perfect catch and release techniques fish still die. Playing them multiple times in and out of the net, back on the reel, etc that kill rate just goes up.....

No argument. I post from my perspective....meaning the only thing I know about trout are those nasty hatchery rainbows. I live in KY it's bass and bluegill and they are much more hearty. So I'm used to catch and release not being catch and die.

Regardless....if every fish they touch died, they were punished for their actions. I'm just not willing to crucify someone over something like this.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[Jimbob]

Very funny how the initial argument gets so side tracked. This is not about throwing the book at them, or if they actions are justifiable, it is about how they acted after the fact.

What they did was wrong - FACT. The OP does not like how they owned up to their WRONG actions. MW and gritty seem to have played it off like it was not a big deal and they really don't have anything to be sorry for.


SO the argument I see here is that some people don't think these are big violations and therefor they don't have much to be sorry for. Others see their actions as a bid deal so they should feel remorse and admit what they did was wrong instead of giving all the reasons to justify it.

All I can say is that when my kids, 10 and under, mess up I don't want to hear any excuses or reasons why they messed up. As the parents we focus on our kids behaviour and make them understand it is their fault they messed up. They take responsibility and apologize. This is not natural for kids to do though, there is always a reason and always somebody else at fault. I expect this behaviour in kids not in adults.

 

[Trial153]

Unfortunately cohorts in the industry are way more likely to respond empathetically to situations like this. After all their compadres are just trying to make a buck for their families. Yawn.
The fact of the matter is that if you derive a portion of your income from these types of pursuits I believe you have a heightened sense of responsibility know the laws and comply with them no matter the complexity or ambiguity.

 

[Halleywood]

I listened to the podcast after reading through this thread. I do believe it was an honest mistake and that they "assumed" they could fish the tributaries. Unfortunately that isn't a defense. Man up, admit you made a mistake, and move on with your career. They did say they were in the wrong...right after saying the regs weren't clear enough. Bryan gave them a chance to completely own up to it by saying something along the lines of "it's still your responsibility to know the rules and you've got to own it" and they said 'yeah'...then went on to state that there's a lot of people out doing that stuff and they were pretty sure someone "said the right stuff to the right people that didn't like us". From my perspective that's not owning up to your mistake. I think they deserve a second chance though.

 

[Shackdaddy]

I listened to the podcast after reading through this thread. I do believe it was an honest mistake and that they "assumed" they could fish the tributaries. Unfortunately that isn't a defense. Man up, admit you made a mistake, and move on with your career. They did say they were in the wrong...right after saying the regs weren't clear enough. Bryan gave them a chance to completely own up to it by saying something along the lines of "it's still your responsibility to know the rules and you've got to own it" and they said 'yeah'...then went on to state that there's a lot of people out doing that stuff and they were pretty sure someone "said the right stuff to the right people that didn't like us". From my perspective that's not owning up to your mistake. I think they deserve a second chance though.

I completely agree after listening to the podcast minus the last sentence. My issue isn't with Brian, I stopped listening to the Gritty Bowmen a long time ago based on my own opinions and had nothing to do with Snyder. It is with the attitude and demeanor of the two guest. Sometimes its not what is said but its how its said and I do not believe solely based on that podcast that those two gave two sh!ts about what happened to them. They never skipped a beat and continued on. Id like to think that we all know that sometimes it far better financially to settle outside of court and that is obvious what occurred here. But from my experience that also covers up a lot of crap that people get away with just with their pocket book. In the end we all have our opinions and what we support and so on, but my support will not be heading that way.