Good Gas Mileage Hunting Vehicle

[nphunter]

Systems engineer? Electrical engineer? Any experience owning, operating, or with the infrastructure related to EV?

I have my doubts that you have any significant knowledge base from which to launch the rant above.

Also, nobody is saying EV is the answer to all situations for all people.

Doubt away,

I'm not saying they don't have their place or they are not cool. Yes a lot of people including the state of WA want all-electric, they put into law that all vehicles registered in the state after 2030 are required to be electric.

I do work in the field, the kWh numbers are true on what it would cost to power 900 electric vehicles 1 time each day. I am totally for renewable power WTG's, storage, and solar, even EV but don't feel it should be shoved down people's throats or used as a political tool which is exactly what they are doing with gas right now. They are trying to force their hand without knowing what it will actually take to accomplish the feat.

Here are a few more,
276,000,000 automobiles in the US, 10% EV would be 27,600,000, multiply that by a 50kWh battery being charged 1 time each day. 27,600,000 x 50= 1,380,000,000 kWh per day for 1 charge. 1 turbine produces 2MW or 2000kWh. 1,380,000,000 / 2000 = 690,000 WTGs to make that much power in 1 hr, power cannot be stored on the grid currently so that is real-time demand. You could spread the power over 24hrs and assume people would split their charge times. That would only be 28,750 more wind turbines running for 24hrs to produce the power for 10% of the cars on the road.

 

[nphunter]

It's very clearly. not a thing everyone can currently manage for their lifestyle, but regarding your Walmart example, it's not nearly this difficult when tons of people have their 'gas station' on their roof and virtually never need to visit a supercharger. My dad, my uncle, several friends have Tesla's and only one of the 6 I'm thinking of don't have solar that chargers their cars, powers their homes and puts extra back in the grid when it's not winter time. It's not everyone that can do that for various reasons, but it takes a big chunk out of the needs for charging infrastructure.

Currently EV's are toys for wealthy people, when you live in a big fancy house it's easy to slap up some solar chargers and a charger for your Tesla. When it's required for you to drive that car back and forth to work, to get groceries, to sit in hours of back-to-back traffic it will be different than having one as a luxury item. People living in apartments, condos, high rises, and duplexes, will not have the ability to install chargers or solar, are all the landlords going to be required to install these charging stations, who is going to pay for all infrastructure to get the extra power to those places. How much will rent cost Americans after every landlord has to spend thousands of dollars installing charging stations?

Maybe it will be OK for a very small demographic but on large scale, it does not work currently and it will be decades before anything substantial will be built. BPA and IPCO have been trying to push the B2H powerline to replace outdated infrastructure in OR since 2018 and they still haven't even gotten a permit to build a 290-mile stretch of the new line due to all the regulations and environmental impacts. It isn't supposed to come online until 2026 at the earliest. That's 8 years to replace 1 old line, how long will it take to do 100+ times that across the whole US? It is silly to think that it could happen anytime soon, out in North East Oregon where I live if the wind blows hard we lose power for a day.

 

[OdinIII]

Here are a few more,
276,000,000 automobiles in the US, 10% EV would be 27,600,000, multiply that by a 50kWh battery being charged 1 time each day.

Don’t most people use 10%-20% of battery capacity per day?

 

[WRM]

They are trying to force their hand without knowing what it will actually take to accomplish the feat.

Cuz it's what they do. Glad to see you evaded SS so far.

 

[WRM]

B2H powerline to replace outdated infrastructure in OR since 2018 and they still haven't even gotten a permit to build a 290-mile stretch of the new line due to all the regulations and environmental impacts.

Yuhp--and old JoePa put us right back into NEPA reviews the Trumpster had throttled down and his EPA just announced crazy new stuff with the CWA and permits. It'll take years to even review permits on virtually any project of significance. Meanwhile, the rest of the highly populated world pollutes like it's 1969. It's all a sick joke. Sadly, it has real world impacts on the vast majority of us unwashed masses who can't afford an EV for "luxury" or necessity.

 

[nphunter]

Don’t most people use 10%-20% of battery capacity per day?

I have no clue, most people around here drive 40-60 minutes each day to work. I assume in large cities they would drive less. Some cars can go 50 miles some can go 300, some people use A/C and Heat which eats batteries and some won't. I would assume if you had an electric car you would want it plugged in when parked. It's not like you're going to get a jumpstart if you leave your dome light on.

I also assume more than 10% of the country will have to go electric the way things are going, Just WA, OR and CA make up more than 10% of the US population.

My main point is that there is more to going all EV than making a few laws and hiking fuel prices, a lot has to be done on the backend and should have already been started if electric vehicles are the end goal.

 

[WRM]

My main point is that there is more to going all EV than making a few laws and hiking fuel prices, a lot has to be done on the backend and should have already been started if electric vehicles are the end goal.

But you're trying to apply logic to what has been created as/turned into a highly illogical situation.

Where I live, I couldn't even tell you the last time I saw a new car with no AC. Maybe they don't offer them without AC anywhere now--dunno, as it's been over 25 years since I bought a car. But, I can't imagine most people anywhere in the southeast or southwest being even remotely happy if they can't use their auto AC for fear of draining batt packs. I might as well ride a bike, and, at the end of the day, I'm starting to believe that's about what they want anyway.

 

[pattimusprime22]

I looked into them but they are not practical at all in North East Oregon. Going anywhere out of the area just doesn't make sense, we recently made a bonsai trip to Montana for my wife and son to run in a Spartan, we drove about 500 miles one way on a Saturday, drove to the woods for the run, and then drove 500 miles back on Sunday morning. Driving from Eastern Oregon, through Northern Idaho into central Montana there is nowhere to charge, we could barely find a place to fuel up or eat along the way.

During hunting season we go to the woods, not a trailhead, last year I had to pack 10 extra gallons of fuel in my Tacoma just to make it back out to a gas station, that gas station was in McDerrmit Nevada, LOL another 3hrs to a town of more than a couple thousand people. We typically go to the woods and don't come out for days or even a week. I also hunt a lot in Idaho, I don't even have cell service for a week at a time there, and depending on where we are it's a couple of hour drive to the closest gas station.

Pattimusprime the below isn't necessarily directed at you but at everyone who thinks EVs are the answer;

It would be cool if EVs were practical but they are not, there is almost zero infrastructure that would support EV usage. It will cost hundreds of trillions of dollars just to get infrastructure anywhere near where it would be somewhat functional, that's not even talking rural towns, schools, hospitals, fire stations, etc.

Imagine the power output Walmart would need in order to charge all the vehicles that show up on the first of each month, our local Walmart holds 900 vehicles in the parking lot, a Tesla takes approx. 50kWh to charge the battery 1 time, that is 45.000kWh of electricity each time the lot is full. An hour to charge/shop so lets say the parking lot is full 5 times a day, holidays would be much more. So 225,000kWh of power just to charge customers' cars, OTECC charges 9.83 cents/kWh so that is about $22,050 worth of electricity that Walmart would use to charge cars each day. A Wind Turbine makes about 1.5-2MWh or 1500-2000kWh so in order to keep Walmarts customers happy and full of fuel/power they would need approx. 112 WTGs running somewhere behind Walmart to produce the amount of power they would need to charge a single day’s worth of cars. A single turbine costs roughly $2M, so roughly a $250,000.000 wind farm would need to be built (not including powerlines, substation, collection system, charging stations, tearing up and putting all the underground infrastructure to charge the cars, and repaving the lot, the list goes on and on) This is all cost just to supply 1 small town enough power to charge 900 Vehicles 1 time each day in 1 parking lot, not to mention the other 20K plus people that live there.

Please explain to me again how everyone in the US will be driving electric cars in the next few years? Who will be paying for all this infrastructure? How long will it take to build, how many wetlands, winter ranges, rivers, streams, fauna, and flora will be destroyed for the greater good so we can all travel up to a couple of hundred miles a day? How is this more environmentally friendly than the current infrastructure and fossil fuels? How about what will happen with the millions of cars on the road that need to be scrapped, all the trucks that deliver people's food, trains, farm equipment harvesting, tilling, delivering food, and ambulances that are transporting people. What will this new infrastructure look like? How will living around that much power constantly be for our health, where will all the lithium come from for all of these batteries?

It’s a pipe dream and anyone who believes it is practical or possible in the near future is smoking dope.

FYI, those above numbers are for a small Tesla, a Hummer EV has a 210kWh battery, so to charge that 1 time it would cost $20 in NE-OR, in CA paying CA Edison it would cost $59 or more depending on your Tier, still pretty cheap compared to current fuel prices, but the issue come with the masses. There just isn’t and will not be infrastructure to charge them even in a giant city with tons of people, imagine sitting at the gas station for hours or even days until you are allowed to fill up to continue on your way. What do you think will happen to electric prices once there is such a demand for it?

The people pushing this agenda are sheep and have no clue where their food and electricity come from, what happens when Dominos runs out of Pizza, everyone will be up shit creek with no clue how to paddle.

Rant Over! Sorry if I offended anyone.

@nphunter No offense taken, and I definitely am not trying to claim that EVs are for everyone and every use case. It may be that after many years, there will still be rural places where ICE vehicles have their place. Or people whose use case warrants ICE vehicles. I think you're right that if everyone suddenly transitioned to electric vehicles, there would not be enough public chargers/grid capacity. My statement was that I think the total cost of ownership will be lower in the coming years for electric vehicles, especially as more EVs are produced and the lower cost new and used market expands. That doesn't mean I think most vehicles on the road will be electric in a few years, rather that for the % of people considering a new/used car purchase, they may lean towards EV.

For me, charging at home at my current electricity rate and using overnight charging means that I'm paying less per mile than I would by paying for gas. The only time I charge at public chargers is longer road trips. Any driving <250 miles in a single day can be done and then recharged overnight at home. The other benefit I've seen is maintenance of EV is basically just replacing my tires. Did I save money overall compared to buying an ICE vehicle? Nope. I bought an expensive new EV when I could have bought a much cheaper, used ICE car. It is fun to drive and most importantly, it works for me.

I hadn't really considered the impact on electricity prices as demand for electricity increases. I'm sure it will have an impact and I'm curious how we as a nation will try to solve that riddle. I'm also aware that a proportion of electricity is generated from fossil fuels/coal, so it's obviously not some magical, risk free, renewable energy. As for the negative health aspect of sitting close to a large battery, I do not know. There very well may be some that we discover in the future. I do know there are very clear negative health consequences of living near/on a highway and breathing fumes from ICE vehicles. I also think there is room to grow in terms of battery materials and disposal/recycling.

Anyways, I appreciate your post and like being challenged in my beliefs. Thanks for your well thought out response.

 

[WRM]

Thankfully, one more new (or newish) gasser should deliver me to Valhalla. I'll see if they have charging stations and try and let y'all know.

The resource you'll be worried about as the end gets closer won't be gas or electricity. Good luck with it all.

 

[Longbow Lunatic]

 

[WRM]

^ I'd love to roll up to a trailhead in that!

Yeah, I drive a Prius too, ya ahole!

 

[JoeDirt]

I have no clue, most people around here drive 40-60 minutes each day to work. I assume in large cities they would drive less. Some cars can go 50 miles some can go 300, some people use A/C and Heat which eats batteries and some won't. I would assume if you had an electric car you would want it plugged in when parked. It's not like you're going to get a jumpstart if you leave your dome light on.

I also assume more than 10% of the country will have to go electric the way things are going, Just WA, OR and CA make up more than 10% of the US population.

My main point is that there is more to going all EV than making a few laws and hiking fuel prices, a lot has to be done on the backend and should have already been started if electric vehicles are the end goal.

Chevy diesel 1/2 ton and Colorado get great mileage

I did buy an EV car it Saves me $6000 dollars a year in fuel so ill keep my 15 mpg Tacoma for a while.

 

[Rob5589]

CA for example is right about .51 cents per gallon gas tax; supposedly to pay for roads and such. So by mandating that 35% of new vehicles sold starting in '26 have to be emissions free, where do you think that lost tax revenue will come from? Don't delude oneself into thinking that states won't put in place an EV surcharge on the energy used to charge the batts to recover lost revenue. Only a matter of time.

 

[parshal]

They'll go to a mileage tax which has been discussed.

 

[5MilesBack]

Pattimusprime the below isn't necessarily directed at you but at everyone who thinks EVs are the answer;

The answer for what??? That's the million dollar question. Politicians and other idiots seem to create problems and then try to force the people into a box to fix the problems that they created or dreamed up. When in actuality, we wouldn't have any of those problems to begin with if the government just got out of the way.

If there are people that want a novelty toy in an EV for commuting in the city, then by all means build some for them. But don't cram them down our throats through mandates and laws and regulations and expect everyone to just fall in line. This doesn't mean we need some new plan for putting charging stations on every corner of the planet. All this means is that auto makers should plan and adjust their productions to meet that demand for EV's. For some auto makers, the decision might very well be to stick with all petroleum powered vehicles. That's a free market. This whole push away from that and into totalitarianism has got to stop! But that requires voters to not be dumbasses.

 

[DangerRanger]

When my f150 falls apart I will probably move to an explorer with the little 4pot turbo or an outback. I’ve been pretty impressed with my wife’s Outback. Plus they look sick with meaty tires and a roof basket

 

[5MilesBack]

^ I'd love to roll up to a trailhead in that!

That thing wouldn't even make it to most of the trailheads I've been to. It's too big.

 

[FLATHEAD]

I'm already hearing the possibility of widespread rolling
blackouts this Summer because the current supply of energy
simply isn't enough. (Due to the closing of coal powered plants).
Yet they want everybody driving an EV?
It's like a construction co. building homes without laying foundations.
This whole green energy thing is gonna fall apart soon.

 

[rideold]

I for one would be more than happy with a plug-in-hybrid 4x4 with 75-100 miles of range on the fully electric side of the system. Probably would be fine with 50 miles.

 

[sterlryu]

My first hunting vehicle was a subie forester which got 22 - 26, bought for $4k, a deer carcass fit in the back tray, was unstoppable off road (light and scampered over everything).