Genetic change in Bucks

[BabyT]

Have there been studies about the genetic changes for bucks to have less than three points? In WA I have seen over 7 and they seem to all have two points.

 

[huntngolf]

I don't think the genetics change, but the amount of certain genetics in a deer herd can change. If everyone shoots 4 point+ deer and passes on 2-3 pointers then the 2-3 pointers become more numerous and therefore pass on more of their genetics. The podcast that rokslide did about antler point restrictions talks about this a bit

 

[Time2time]

I've heard that from some of WA state buddies. I wonder if they could do a width and or height restrictions like they do on moose so some of the big forks without eyeguards can get shot. I like the idea of point restrictions to let the bucks mature but have heard the 3pt+ genetics are getting shot out over there.

 

[Dioni A]

Genetics are a product of mom's health while the buck is in gestation. Mom's health is a product of habitat and all the factors that go into her environment. The best explanation of this is a podcast on meat eater titled -landscape of fear episode 162.

 

[Time2time]

Yeah I listened to that one too. But I also don't think that 100% of the time a fat doe = giant bucks.

 

[Fordguy]

Genetics are determined by the chromosomes derived from the buck and doe that are parents to the offspring in question. There are a lot of factors that can affect the expression of certain genetic traits, but let's not confuse genotype with phenotype.

 

[hoodb]

In Washington, it's possible that lots of bucks having two points on their antlers is due to something in their local genes.

 

[WeiserBucks]

You guys do realize that the majority of 2 and 3 point bucks are simply young, right? Big mature bucks weren't big when they were were young and the vast majority of 4 1/2+ year old muleys aren't 2 points or small 3 points.

 

[willfrye027]

You guys do realize that the majority of 2 and 3 point bucks are simply young, right? Big mature bucks weren't big when they were were young and the vast majority of 4 1/2+ year old muleys aren't 2 points or small 3 points.

“But he’s got a white face and a Roman nose, must be an old buck”

 

[BuckRut]

Genetics are a product of mom's health while the buck is in gestation. Mom's health is a product of habitat and all the factors that go into her environment. The best explanation of this is a podcast on meat eater titled -landscape of fear episode 162.

You sir, did not pay enough attention in high school biology class.

 

[Dioni A]

You sir, did not pay enough attention in high school biology class.

Of course both parents are going to have an influence on the genetics but both parents are also a product of every generation of deer before them. The more generations of deer you have living on good feed and good habitat the bigger they will become. It allows their offspring to have a reproductive advantage. If you live in an area with scarce resources and you're trying to grow that big before you can hit reproductive maturity there's a good chance you die before that happens. In those circumstances it's advantageous to be small.

I'm assuming you have no idea the study that I'm referencing. Going to give you the benefit of the doubt on that one. It's not my theory. People who have doctoral degrees in this field did this research. I just happen to agree with it.

 

[BuckRut]

Of course both parents are going to have an influence on the genetics but both parents are also a product of every generation of deer before them. The more generations of deer you have living on good feed and good habitat the bigger they will become. It allows their offspring to have a reproductive advantage. If you live in an area with scarce resources and you're trying to grow that big before you can hit reproductive maturity there's a good chance you die before that happens. In those circumstances it's advantageous to be small.

I'm assuming you have no idea the study that I'm referencing. Going to give you the benefit of the doubt on that one. It's not my theory. People who have doctoral degrees in this field did this research. I just happen to agree with it.

Genetics control a lot more that just antler size. It's actually what makes a deer a deer and not a chicken. The genetic makeup is established at conception and cannot be changed at all during the gestation period.

 

[NRA4LIFE]

Of all the states I've hunted mule deer, I have never seen nearly as high a percentage of 2 points than WA. And quite a few never get any more points. I have seen some absolute monster 2's out here.

 

[Dioni A]

Genetics control a lot more that just antler size. It's actually what makes a deer a deer and not a chicken. The genetic makeup is established at conception and cannot be changed at all during the gestation period.

So insightful. I didn't realize that a deer wasn't a chicken. I appreciate your generalities which don't in any way address the study I was talking about. Body and antler size are both controled by what I'm talking about. In the frame of reference that people are using when they're talking about deer they're typically referring to antler characteristics and body size specifically. Probably not so much to do with the genetic variation between a chicken and a deer. I love your out of context references though.
I would encourage you to listen to the podcast I referenced.

You're probably too busy arguing with people on the internet to do that though.

 

[Dioni A]

@BuckRut I'll make it easy for you

Ep. 162: Landscape of Fear | MeatEater Podcasts

Steven Rinella talks with Dr. Kevin Monteith, Dr. Matt Kaufmann, Jared Oakleaf, and Janis Putelis.Subjects discussed: genetics that rewrite our understanding of animals; big game guts; learning how to migrate; who pays for wildlife research?; brain scrambling, extreme sports, and wildlife capture...

www.themeateater.com

IN THIS EPISODE

Steven Rinella talks with Dr. Kevin Monteith, Dr. Matt Kaufmann, Jared Oakleaf, and Janis Putelis.

Subjects discussed: genetics that rewrite our understanding of animals; big game guts; learning how to migrate; who pays for wildlife research?; brain scrambling, extreme sports, and wildlife capture; advancing modern wildlife management; how the rut kills bucks and bulls; the strange and far-ranging journeys of deer; the mule deer heyday; lighting a fuse and leaving the room; why scientists hate to speculate; eruptive dynamics; surfing the green wave; climate change; the importance of migration corridors and stopover areas; and more.

 

[BuckRut]

So insightful. I didn't realize that a deer wasn't a chicken. I appreciate your generalities which don't in any way address the study I was talking about. Body and antler size are both controled by what I'm talking about. In the frame of reference that people are using when they're talking about deer they're typically referring to antler characteristics and body size specifically. Probably not so much to do with the genetic variation between a chicken and a deer. I love your out of context references though.
I would encourage you to listen to the podcast I referenced.

You're probably too busy arguing with people on the internet to do that though.

I'm not arguing with you at all. Just clarifying for those who might not know that

Genetics are a product of mom's health while the buck is in gestation.

is a false statement.

 

[Bubblehide]

Biologist after biologist has stated that the largest contributing factor to antler growth is the quality of the food supply, specifically limestone and phosphorus in the food supply.

 

[willfrye027]

Genetics control a lot more that just antler size. It's actually what makes a deer a deer and not a chicken. The genetic makeup is established at conception and cannot be changed at all during the gestation period.

Google epigenetics. some aspects of “genetics” are actually influenced by environmental factors.

 

[Fordguy]

Biologist after biologist has stated that the largest contributing factor to antler growth is the quality of the food supply, specifically limestone and phosphorus in the food supply.

If the herd in question has the genetic potential for large, multi-branched antlers with eyeguards/browtines then this would be correct. Without the underlying genetic makeup, you'd still have bucks with smaller antlers, and fewer tines/points. Genotype vs phenotype.

Not that points are everything. I'd take a mature heavy 2x2 with good mass and height over a spindly young 4x4, but that's just my preference. To each their own.

 

[Marble]

Genetics control a lot more that just antler size. It's actually what makes a deer a deer and not a chicken. The genetic makeup is established at conception and cannot be changed at all during the gestation period.

I think what he isn't saying is that study focused heavily on the does health prior to, during, and after birth. The healthier the doe was in all of those stages, then the bigger the fawns were at birth and every other mile stone after that. Bigger bodied deer equaled higher survival rates and larger antlered bucks. It's a totalality of all of the circumstances that dictate antler growth. Genetics is only part of it.



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