Genetic change in Bucks

[Bubblehide]

If the herd in question has the genetic potential for large, multi-branched antlers with eyeguards/browtines then this would be correct. Without the underlying genetic makeup, you'd still have bucks with smaller antlers, and fewer tines/points. Genotype vs phenotype.

Not that points are everything. I'd take a mature heavy 2x2 with good mass and height over a spindly young 4x4, but that's just my preference. To each their own.

Yeah, that is old school thought process; old beliefs can be very difficult to let go of for many.

 

[Fowl Play]

Opposite end of the west coast. But the forky gene is very prevalent in San Diego County, CA as well. Very few bucks ever getting more than a 2x and if they do it’s a 3rd along the main beam more similar to a whitetail or black tail rack than a Muley. Believe it to be just local genetics. Many of these bucks are very fat and healthy with mild winters.

 

[Scoot]

Google epigenetics. some aspects of “genetics” are actually influenced by environmental factors.

Yep, some markers in genes are switched on or off, depending on environment. It's a tough concept to grasp given that it contradicts a lot of what we use to "know" about genetics. But it's true.

 

[Fordguy]

Yeah, that is old school thought process; old beliefs can be very difficult to let go of for many.

Umm, that's science. The genetic base has to be there. An individual deer's genetics don't change regardless of whether his recent ancestors have been well fed or starved. The future physical expression of certain genetic traits can definitely be affected by malnutrition, or optimal nutrition while in utero. With the exception of mutation (usually something severely detrimental) the genetic material is what it is.
My last biology class was mammalian physiology, I suppose something could have changed in the way mammals evolve in the last 20 years. If you have a reputable scientific source to back up independent, single generation genetic change (positive change not mutation like cancer) brought about by nutrition I'd be very interested in seeing it/reading it.

 

[realunlucky]

Umm, that's science. The genetic base has to be there. An individual deer's genetics don't change regardless of whether his recent ancestors have been well fed or starved. The future physical expression of certain genetic traits can definitely be affected by malnutrition, or optimal nutrition while in utero. With the exception of mutation (usually something severely detrimental) the genetic material is what it is.
My last biology class was mammalian physiology, I suppose something could have changed in the way mammals evolve in the last 20 years. If you have a reputable scientific source to back up independent, single generation genetic change (positive change not mutation like cancer) brought about by nutrition I'd be very interested in seeing it/reading it.

Well if you want to hear an actual deer biologist speak to this https://www.rokslide.com/growing-big-mule-deer-with-wildlife-prof-randy-larsen/
You might find it interesting where he ranks genetics among the other influences of antler growth.

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[atmat]

There’s a lot of guys who would fail basic biology in this thread, and then there is @Fordguy who is absolutely correct.

Genetics are the DNA you have at conception. Those don’t change. It’s your genotype.

Expression of genes are influenced by environmental/external factors, and thus the expression of genes may change. That’s called phenotype. But the genetic material doesn’t change.

 

[atmat]

Well if you want to hear an actual deer biologist speak to this https://www.rokslide.com/growing-big-mule-deer-with-wildlife-prof-randy-larsen/
You might find it interesting where he ranks genetics among the other influences of antler growth.

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@Fordguy isn’t taking a stance on the impact of genetics on antler growth. He’s clarifying people’s misuse of defined scientific and biological terms.

Someone said that genetics can change. They do not change. The expression of the genetic material changes.

 

[willfrye027]

@Fordguy isn’t taking a stance on the impact of genetics on antler growth. He’s clarifying people’s misuse of defined scientific and biological terms.

Someone said that genetics can change. They do not change. The expression of the genetic material changes.

Except for…epigenetics which are also inheritable yet influenced by environmental and other factors.

 

[atmat]

Except for…epigenetics which are also inheritable yet influenced by environmental and other factors.

From CDC: “Epigenetics is the study of how your behaviors and environment can cause changes that affect the way your genes work. Unlike genetic changes, epigenetic changes are reversible and do not change your DNA sequence, but they can change how your body reads a DNA sequence.”

Epigenetic traits, while heritable, do not result from changes in your genotype (i.e., generics). Your genetics are determined at conception.

 

[willfrye027]

From CDC: “Epigenetics is the study of how your behaviors and environment can cause changes that affect the way your genes work. Unlike genetic changes, epigenetic changes are reversible and do not change your DNA sequence, but they can change how your body reads a DNA sequence.”

Epigenetic traits, while heritable, do not result from changes in your genotype (i.e., generics). Your genetics are determined at conception.

Semantics. back to the main topic of antler growth, epigenetic changes can be heritable and would be a good explanation for why it takes a couple generations of good nutrition in the mothers to produce bucks with larger racks.

 

[atmat]

Semantics.

In general conversation, yes. But the thread is literally over genetics. It’s helpful to have an 8th grade understanding of biology to have the discussion.

 

[willfrye027]

In general conversation, yes. But the thread is literally over genetics. It’s helpful to have an 8th grade understanding of biology to have the discussion.

I don’t think epigenetics is covered in high school biology, but you will find it in higher education genetics textbooks. It is not worth arguing about but is definitely an important aspect of buck “genetics” and an evolving field of genetics research