General Fitness Preparation vs CrossFit

[Huntaddicted]

To me, any work out coupled with some endurance training is going to be good. There is no substitute for actually hiking up mountains under load though...you can train your muscles to be strong, and train your lungs to process oxygen better, and have more capacity with Crossfit or other programs, but to me and with what I have read about cross fit, the odds of getting injured through preparation has kept me away from it.

I work out all year long and one of the biggest things is getting my mountain feet under me. Combination of weights, elliptical, treadmill and actual hiking. Works for me.

That first day side hilling for 6 hours always wakes up the muscles I could not train

 

[awcopeland]

I'm pretty sure you have that wrong.

Both can complement the other.

The ratio depends on the goal. Are you working on an aerobic base to improve duration of and recovery between anaerobic sprints, or are are you using anaerobic sprints to improve power during aerobic endurance?

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

Here’s a quick Google scholar search. You can now take the time to infer what you want. It’s well known that anaerobic work will increase aerobic capacity. That’s not to say that your average Joe can go run a marathon on a whim and not end up injured. We would all agree that’s not very wise. But, think about it: legitimate intense anaerobic work will move the aerobic capacity needle.

On the contrary, someone that is a specialist in (pick your favorite) long distance monostructural modality will never reap anaerobic benefits at the same rate.


I’ll also say it a third time that ego and ignorance have more to do with rate of injury than the program itself. I’ve done CF for 13 years with other activities mixed in (also something that Greg Glassman pointed out was a benefit to increased work capacity across broad time and modal domains) with zero major injuries. It can be done.

 

[Poser]

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

Here’s a quick Google scholar search. You can now take the time to infer what you want. It’s well known that anaerobic work will increase aerobic capacity. That’s not to say that your average Joe can go run a marathon on a whim and not end up injured. We would all agree that’s not very wise. But, think about it: legitimate intense anaerobic work will move the aerobic capacity needle.

On the contrary, someone that is a specialist in (pick your favorite) long distance monostructural modality will never reap anaerobic benefits at the same rate.


I’ll also say it a third time that ego and ignorance have more to do with rate of injury than the program itself. I’ve done CF for 13 years with other activities mixed in (also something that Greg Glassman pointed out was a benefit to increased work capacity across broad time and modal domains) with zero major injuries. It can be done.

This is an incorrect interpretation and virtually everybody of relevance outside of the Crossfit cult knows this to be true:

Your body naturally adapts to consistent training patterns. When you frequently train at or near your endurance limit (Zone 3), your anaerobic and glycolytic metabolic systems become highly refined, but at the cost of deconditioning your aerobic pathway—the system responsible for efficient fat metabolism. Another common result of this training imbalance is a decrease in aerobic enzyme concentration, as these enzymes aren’t receiving sufficient stimulus from low-intensity training.

Athletes who engage in consistent CrossFit or similar HIIT-style training for a year or more often find their Aerobic Threshold reduced to a walking pace. This occurs because their aerobic metabolism has been neglected, leaving it incapable of producing more power beyond this minimal level.

Aerobic Deficiency

Aerobic Deficiency Syndrome (ADS) is the result of doing too much training at a high intensity while neglecting the all-important aerobic base.

uphillathlete.com

Crossfitters tend to not be aware that they lack of an aerobic base because they do virtually nothing sustained in the zone 2 realm and the fact of the matter is, no dedicated Crossfitter who has been exclusively doing "Crossfit" programming has done anything of significance in the endurance realm on Crossfit programming alone.

Where are the Crossfitters putting up FKTs on Himalayan Peaks, The CT, the CDT, the PCT or the AT? Where are the Crossfitters dominating Ironmans, marathons, skimo and other endurance races?
Oh, that's right, there aren't any -the people doing that are primarily training zone 2.

 

[strattonje2020]

This is an incorrect interpretation and virtually everybody of relevance outside of the Crossfit cult knows this to be true:

Your body naturally adapts to consistent training patterns. When you frequently train at or near your endurance limit (Zone 3), your anaerobic and glycolytic metabolic systems become highly refined, but at the cost of deconditioning your aerobic pathway—the system responsible for efficient fat metabolism. Another common result of this training imbalance is a decrease in aerobic enzyme concentration, as these enzymes aren’t receiving sufficient stimulus from low-intensity training.

Athletes who engage in consistent CrossFit or similar HIIT-style training for a year or more often find their Aerobic Threshold reduced to a walking pace. This occurs because their aerobic metabolism has been neglected, leaving it incapable of producing more power beyond this minimal level.

Aerobic Deficiency

Aerobic Deficiency Syndrome (ADS) is the result of doing too much training at a high intensity while neglecting the all-important aerobic base.

uphillathlete.com

Crossfitters tend to not be aware that they lack of an aerobic base because they do virtually nothing sustained in the zone 2 realm and the fact of the matter is, no dedicated Crossfitter who has been exclusively doing "Crossfit" programming has done anything of significance in the endurance realm on Crossfit programming alone.

Where are the Crossfitters putting up FKTs on Himalayan Peaks, The CT, the CDT, the PCT or the AT? Where are the Crossfitters dominating Ironmans, marathons, skimo and other endurance races?
Oh, that's right, there aren't any -the people doing that are primarily training zone 2.

Problem solved just do kipping pullups and keep heart rate in zone 2 for 3-4 hr a week

 

[awcopeland]

This is an incorrect interpretation and virtually everybody of relevance outside of the Crossfit cult knows this to be true:

Your body naturally adapts to consistent training patterns. When you frequently train at or near your endurance limit (Zone 3), your anaerobic and glycolytic metabolic systems become highly refined, but at the cost of deconditioning your aerobic pathway—the system responsible for efficient fat metabolism. Another common result of this training imbalance is a decrease in aerobic enzyme concentration, as these enzymes aren’t receiving sufficient stimulus from low-intensity training.

Athletes who engage in consistent CrossFit or similar HIIT-style training for a year or more often find their Aerobic Threshold reduced to a walking pace. This occurs because their aerobic metabolism has been neglected, leaving it incapable of producing more power beyond this minimal level.

Aerobic Deficiency

Aerobic Deficiency Syndrome (ADS) is the result of doing too much training at a high intensity while neglecting the all-important aerobic base.

uphillathlete.com

Crossfitters tend to not be aware that they lack of an aerobic base because they do virtually nothing sustained in the zone 2 realm and the fact of the matter is, no dedicated Crossfitter who has been exclusively doing "Crossfit" programming has done anything of significance in the endurance realm on Crossfit programming alone.

Where are the Crossfitters putting up FKTs on Himalayan Peaks, The CT, the CDT, the PCT or the AT? Where are the Crossfitters dominating Ironmans, marathons, skimo and other endurance races?
Oh, that's right, there aren't any -the people doing that are primarily training zone 2.

I think you’re missing what I’m saying. I’m not saying that CF is the best way to “dominate Ironmans”. It is a GPP program designed to make you well rounded and capable of COMPLETING not dominating any given task. And it does that really well. The idea that HIIT reduces aerobic capacity is comparative to someone only focusing on aerobic capacity. I’m speaking in the context of a relatively untrained individual which is what this thread started on.

I do not struggle in the mountains. I’m not going to spend hours and hours doing zone 2 work. I’m going to go to the gym and be done within an hour-ish and be plenty capable to hunt whatever hunt and do whatever I desire to do outside of hunting. I don’t care that it isn’t optimal for a marathon or an ultra or an Ironman. I’ve yet to be on a hunt that I need to swim to kill an elk but I realize that it isn’t outside the realm of possibility. I’m sure I’ll figure it out. And if I die in the process then I guess you won’t have to listen to me have a differing opinion on what I’m going to do fitness programming wise to be a capable individual. Go have fun running for hours. I agree that you will be better than me when it comes to aerobic base and aerobic capacity. But I’ll most likely be better than you at squatting and deadlifting and power cleans and pull ups of all variations because I have trained those… to include fishy kipping pull ups.

 

[P Carter]

^I think this is probably a fair summary. Is it optimal training for endurance in the mountains? No. Is it good exercise, such that you can handle most hunting? Probably so. Will you be better than others at fake, flappy pull-ups? Definitely so.

 

[strattonje2020]

All training is subjective to where and how you hunt. If you truly hunt how Cam Hanes did before he blew up or do you hunt on a ranch now like he does?

 

[Poser]

I think you’re missing what I’m saying. I’m not saying that CF is the best way to “dominate Ironmans”. It is a GPP program designed to make you well rounded and capable of COMPLETING not dominating any given task. And it does that really well. The idea that HIIT reduces aerobic capacity is comparative to someone only focusing on aerobic capacity. I’m speaking in the context of a relatively untrained individual which is what this thread started on.

I do not struggle in the mountains. I’m not going to spend hours and hours doing zone 2 work. I’m going to go to the gym and be done within an hour-ish and be plenty capable to hunt whatever hunt and do whatever I desire to do outside of hunting. I don’t care that it isn’t optimal for a marathon or an ultra or an Ironman. I’ve yet to be on a hunt that I need to swim to kill an elk but I realize that it isn’t outside the realm of possibility. I’m sure I’ll figure it out. And if I die in the process then I guess you won’t have to listen to me have a differing opinion on what I’m going to do fitness programming wise to be a capable individual. Go have fun running for hours. I agree that you will be better than me when it comes to aerobic base and aerobic capacity. But I’ll most likely be better than you at squatting and deadlifting and power cleans and pull ups of all variations because I have trained those… to include fishy kipping pull ups.

I actually do't do any running. All of my zone 2 is hiking with a pack, skinning with a pack + some rowing ad box step ups (also with a pack).

I am also a huge proponent of strength, have a bit of a background in competitive powerlifting and olympic lifting. I squat, deadlift, bench press, and overhead press + a tiny handful of strength accessories 2-3x a week depending on the training cycle. I, like many o here, also went through a Crossfit phase some years back and found it inferior for mountain specific conditioning to zone 2 + strength training.

Living in a small mountain town with a high percentage of mountain specific athletes (and, I believe, the highest percentage of olympic athletes per capita in the US) that also has 4 Crossfit boxes, I know exactly zero crossfitters who thrive i the mountains or are even serious mountain sports athletes. Not one single one.

 

[Marbles]

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

Here’s a quick Google scholar search. You can now take the time to infer what you want. It’s well known that anaerobic work will increase aerobic capacity. That’s not to say that your average Joe can go run a marathon on a whim and not end up injured. We would all agree that’s not very wise. But, think about it: legitimate intense anaerobic work will move the aerobic capacity needle.

On the contrary, someone that is a specialist in (pick your favorite) long distance monostructural modality will never reap anaerobic benefits at the same rate.


I’ll also say it a third time that ego and ignorance have more to do with rate of injury than the program itself. I’ve done CF for 13 years with other activities mixed in (also something that Greg Glassman pointed out was a benefit to increased work capacity across broad time and modal domains) with zero major injuries. It can be done.

I can Google something, if that is the extent of your support, well I'll not be rude and give my opinion. Believe what you want, the mountain doesn't care.

 

[mtwarden]

I had a long chat with Scott Johnston (formerly Uphill Athlete and now Evoke) about mountain training in general.

He related a story about being approached be a few Army Rangers who had competed in the Best Ranger Competition, but wanted to do better. It's a grueling three day affair that encompasses a whole range of skills, with very little rest. Definitely an endurance "sport" with a lot of other stuff sprinkled in (shooting skills, map reading, etc).

When he discussed what their training had previously been, it was a shit ton of HIIT with a little other stuff sprinkled in. What he saw was missing was spending enough time in the lower training zones and building that aerobic base. He adjusted their training to include a lot of lower intensity training, while still keeping some HIIT stuff and also introducing them to the concept of ME. (muscular endurance).

He's now trained several Rangers and I can't recall their exact places, but they were all at or near the top.

Will a hunt ever be as hard as a competition like this? Very unlikely, BUT the training concepts for a multi-day hunt in the mountains should at least approximate this approach. When you see proven results from mountaineers, mountain ultra runners, skimo competitors, others and now Rangers, you get the sense that they may just be onto something.

Of course YMMV

 

[kad11]

I had a long chat with Scott Johnston (formerly Uphill Athlete and now Evoke) about mountain training in general.

He related a story about being approached be a few Army Rangers who had competed in the Best Ranger Competition, but wanted to do better. It's a grueling three day affair that encompasses a whole range of skills, with very little rest. Definitely an endurance "sport" with a lot of other stuff sprinkled in (shooting skills, map reading, etc).

When he discussed what their training had previously been, it was a shit ton of HIIT with a little other stuff sprinkled in. What he saw was missing was spending enough time in the lower training zones and building that aerobic base. He adjusted their training to include a lot of lower intensity training, while still keeping some HIIT stuff and also introducing them to the concept of ME. (muscular endurance).

He's now trained several Rangers and I can't recall their exact places, but they were all at or near the top.

Will a hunt ever be as hard as a competition like this? Very unlikely, BUT the training concepts for a multi-day hunt in the mountains should at least approximate this approach. When you see proven results from mountaineers, mountain ultra runners, skimo competitors, others and now Rangers, you get the sense that they may just be onto something.

Of course YMMV

Could you, or anyone else in this Z2, ME and strength training camp, provide an overview of training blocks that you use throughout the year along with how you would spend your time if you had 6-8 hrs/wk to train? I'm just looking for some rough guidance on the overall weekly and yearly framework ie: "Q1 - 3 hrs strength, 2 hrs ME, 2 hrs Z2; Q2 - 2 hrs strength, 3 hrs ME, 3 hrs Z2, etc...".

At 36, I'm noticing that I'm less able to "cram" (ie: a little bit of training during the summer with maybe a 1-2 night scouting trip preseason) and still be good to go come September. My specific application is 5-10 day backpack hunts, 50-60 lb starting weight, typically have a big climb of 4-5k ft on day 1, then 2-3k descent and ascent every few days afterwards for the duration of hunt. Nothing crazy, but the subsequent climbs towards the end of hunts is becoming more of a slog...

Thanks!

 

[strattonje2020]

Could you, or anyone else in this Z2, ME and strength training camp, provide an overview of training blocks that you use throughout the year along with how you would spend your time if you had 6-8 hrs/wk to train? I'm just looking for some rough guidance on the overall weekly and yearly framework ie: "Q1 - 3 hrs strength, 2 hrs ME, 2 hrs Z2; Q2 - 2 hrs strength, 3 hrs ME, 3 hrs Z2, etc...".

My specific application is 5-10 day backpack trips, 50-60 lb pack, relocating camp every few days.

At 36, I'm noticing that I'm less able to "cram" (ie: a little bit of training during the summer with maybe a 1-2 night scouting trip preseason) and still be good to go come September....

Thanks!

16 weeks phase 1
3 weeks 1 week deload
strength 80 percent- 20 percent conditioning ( bonus zone 2 ruck when can or walks with fam)

8 weeks phase 2
3 weeks 1 week deload
80 percent conditioning - 20 percent strength more functional sand bags etc ( bonus zone 2 ruck when can or walks with fam)

16 weeks phase 3

3 week blocks 1 week deload repeat
2 metcons a week with weight under fatigue
2 days interval training monostructural during rest static barbell lifts ( push press, cleans, front squats) 10 reps 60 percent loading of 1 rep max
1 ruck day underload

each block progression
take out the interval session and replace with zone 2 work on bikes, stair master, running if you can. ( you can make zone 2 more bearable 10 mins an swap machine for 40-60 min)
increase distance of ruck/ weight/elevations/pace ( dont increase more than 2 each week)

repeat above until hunt season imo.
besides the muscularly endurance work during rucks I would do something like this on one zone 2 day. Run 60 mins. every 5 mins 25 body weight squats or box step ups. ( increase reps by 5 each week)

by the end you should be 80 percent zone 2 hr and 20 percent zone 4/5 total time.

 

[kad11]

16 weeks phase 1
3 weeks 1 week deload
strength 80 percent- 20 percent conditioning ( bonus zone 2 ruck when can or walks with fam)

8 weeks phase 2
3 weeks 1 week deload
80 percent conditioning - 20 percent strength more functional sand bags etc ( bonus zone 2 ruck when can or walks with fam)

16 weeks phase 3

3 week blocks 1 week deload repeat
2 metcons a week with weight under fatigue
2 days interval training monostructural during rest static barbell lifts ( push press, cleans, front squats) 10 reps 60 percent loading of 1 rep max
1 ruck day underload

each block progression
take out the interval session and replace with zone 2 work on bikes, stair master, running if you can. ( you can make zone 2 more bearable 10 mins an swap machine for 40-60 min)
increase distance of ruck/ weight/elevations/pace ( dont increase more than 2 each week)

repeat above until hunt season imo.
besides the muscularly endurance work during rucks I would do something like this on one zone 2 day. Run 60 mins. every 5 mins 25 body weight squats or box step ups. ( increase reps by 5 each week)

by the end you should be 80 percent zone 2 hr and 20 percent zone 4/5 total time.

When you say conditioning in phases 1 and 2 are you referring to Z2 work?

 

[strattonje2020]

phase 1 Id do hit style short 5-10 min workouts to get the hr high and leave you gasping. you want to build as much strength as possible in this phase. You can prob add in 3-4 hrs of zone 2 if you have the time but it doesn't take alot to maintain a decent base. if your goal was primarily endurance then id do 2-3 endurance day2, 2 strength, and 1 speed day.

phase 2 id do hit/metcon/zone2 maybe biased towards metcon as a bootcamp.

fun examples

4 min emom for 40 min
row 500m
10 front squat 95-135 lbs ( want unbroken all rds)
rest remainder of 4 min (repeat)

32 min emom
min1: row 15 cals
min2: 10 push press 50lb dumb
min3 10 burpees
min4 max strict pullups unbroken

150 wall balls
each time you break run 400m
for time ( run slow and controlled to get your breath but consistent run pace each set)

run 800m
25 box step ups with 30-50 lb pack
run 800m
25 lunges with pack
run800 m ( same even run splits)

10-1 deadlift 225lb
1-10 burpee
10-1 squat 185lb
1-10 pullup


if you cut your grass with a push mower wear your pack with 20-30lbs. close to free zone 2. at the very least muscular endurance training on the Skelton. Zone 2 adaptations take a long time. I'm more of a fan at finding family time to get the zone 2 benefits. I think even high zone 1 can push that needle just not as fast.


block 1 build muscle then make that muscle stronger
block 2 bring up conditioning to use the new strength and express fitness
block3 phase 3a
train your energy systems for your goal (endurance here with a mix of general strength)
phase 3b
add volume.
phase 3c/d
train sport specific movements and muscular endurance how they will be used in season(lungs legs heart core and hip flexors)

This is what I do. My goal is to never say no to a canyon dive or climb because of fitness. I also want to look good naked and be the strongest dad on the block. lol

 

[mtwarden]

I only have two training blocks

For ten months I strength train twice a week (Wendler 5-3-1) and I hike (or snowshoe or ski) daily on our local single track trails (probably 80-ish% in Zone 2, steeper stuff I'm getting into Z3 and sometime Z4). I usually get a dozen plus backpacking trips in throughout the year (one is a multi-day adventure race).

Two months prior to hunting season I cut back on the weight with Wendler, but still lift twice a week. I'm still hiking daily, but one or two of the days in a week I'm using their ME workouts of a very steep climb with a weighted pack. Starting at ~30 lbs, finishing at ~60 lbs.

Not overly scientific, but seems to work