Full Length Sizing FNG Question

[Choupique]

catering to the dumbest customer that they expect to encounter

 

[JGRaider]

What are you shooting that you don't have to bump the shoulder back after a few firings? I think the instructions for the die even mention it.

6.5CM, 7mm08, 6.5PRC, 7Mag. I don't redline my loads either. This along with not working over brass near as much as with FL sizing seems to allow brass to last longer for me. Runout is usually around .003 using the Lee die, more than good enough.

After neck sizing I always run brass through the rifle to make sure it cycles well just to make sure. If it doesn't, time to bump shoulders with Redding body die.

 

[SloppyJ]

6.5CM, 7mm08, 6.5PRC, 7Mag. I don't redline my loads either. This along with not working over brass near as much as with FL sizing seems to allow brass to last longer for me. Runout is usually around .003 using the Lee die, more than good enough.

After neck sizing I always run brass through the rifle to make sure it cycles well just to make sure. If it doesn't, time to bump shoulders with Redding body die.

People get a stupid amount of reloads by just bumping the shoulder back. We obviously have different strokes but if you have the body die I don't understand why you wouldn't bump the shoulder back to ensure you can reliable feed that cartridge in any condition. If you want consistency, that's it. If you're so concerned about brass life, what's your annealing process?

But this is a hobby where you can do things a million different ways. As long as you're happy that's all that matters.

 

[Weldor]

Good stuff here. I anneal then size. maybe 2-3 firing's. I have had full length dies and shell holders that needed to be trimmed, but is has been rare. I use a old Hollywood junior for sizing press the thing is a monster. No effort required.

 

[Choupique]

I'm using a lee hand press. Made myself some cheater pipes for it

 

[Koda_]

Im really baffled by the plethora of advice here going in all kinds of directions.

If you want simple, then anneal your brass, use a Forster Accu-ring and learn to shoulder bump and it wont get any simpler than that and you will increase your brass life (reducing that $5/rd metric).

Shoulder bumping is not hard to learn. There is nothing complicated about reloading or you are making it complicated intentionally or not. Size your brass, load it, shoot it and find the load your rifle likes best (accuracy) and done and go hunting and target shooting with that recipe for years. Its that simple.

 

[Choupique]

baffled by the plethora of advice here going in all kinds of directions.

It's definitely common theme everywhere. Ranges from "just follow the directions" to quantum mechanics. Seems there's a vast range of things that works for different people. I just want to make sure that what I have going on here isn't unheard of, and it seems it isn't.

 

[Koda_]

According to my crude comparator I'm getting 0.002-0.004" of shoulder bump this way. Sounds like I just magically got the right combination of stuff for it to work out that way?

I had read and been told that sizing brass this way dramatically overworks it and results in exceptionally short case life and risk of case head separation with belted magnums. According to my comparator and rifle, it's what it takes to get it chambering like I want it to. Am I about to start blowing case heads this way? How do you even properly check if you're in danger of splitting a case head?

I haven't heard of this risk with shoulder bumping belted magnums. The whole purpose of shoulder bumping is to minimize working the brass each firing, so I dont see how it would stress the case head area. You bump the shoulder the minimum amount to freely chamber and that amount is all it will grow when fireformed. The belted case will still headspace normally on its belt with these cases as long as youve moved the shoulder enought to not contact the chamber shoulder wall.

It's definitely common theme everywhere. Ranges from "just follow the directions" to quantum mechanics. Seems there's a vast range of things that works for different people. I just want to make sure that what I have going on here isn't unheard of, and it seems it isn't.

The very basics of handloading has been producing quality hunting ammo for handloaders for centuries. Most of the rabbit holes hunters go down are not needed, even shoulder bumping is subjective.
Basic handloading starts with deciding two paths, neck sizing or FL sizing. Each have their merits and weaknesses but anything extra or different from the dies instructions are optional rabbit holes that are not needed. People try new or different things and find something that works for them, in their rifle, with their components... do not mean it will work for you and yours. The problem is when they swear by it as "needed" . Learn to identify the rabbit hole advice and tuck them away for some day when you've gained the experience handloading to decide if you need improving your hunting round and you'll find you dont need them.

A note about shoulder bumping (SB), its a subset of FL sizing. You don't need to do it but the advantage is it greatly reduces working the brass and less brass movement in the chamber (theoretically, more accuracy) improving case life. Thats it. The difference between FL and SB is the distance between your fireformed datum and a fully sized datum out of your die ( roughly .012" off the top of my head as a general rule if I recall but dont quote that...). FL sizing takes the brass to its minimum saami spec so it fits all chambers, thats it. Most FL dies usually go a couple thou smaller to assure any tolerance stackup issues with every rifle. SB sizing eliminates that larger difference in brass growth in the chamber when firing. IMO its worth it to learn and the better way to go but it is a little trickier to learn. In my experience I didn't get it until I started annealing the brass so it forms in the die consistently (each time you fire it gets harder, less springback etc., annealing brings the brass back to its original hardness which is more malleable). For me, annealing was the kingpin to learning shoulder bumping. Now I can quickly bump it around .002-.004 every time I set up, consistently. Note: you do not need an expensive annealing machine to properly anneal brass.
That said, again, its optional. I have a friend who's FL sizing (not SB) and nothing more and is hitting 10in gongs out to 600yds with his hunting rifle. He gets sub moa groups at 100yds. All he's doing is following the FL dies instructions, found his best charge weight and seating depth was all he did to dial in his handload. Note: hes running a belted magnum too so maybe SB isnt needed with belted magnums. IDK but were counting firings to see whos brass lasts longer, jury is still out.

I would ditch the socket and get the right tools for the job, a Hornady case gauge is cheap and will be more precise measurements than your socket. But I give you merit for that idea, I could get that to work if needed but I question if its precise enough to measure consistently and know your getting say as little as a .002" bump. Bottom line is as long as it freely fits the chamber but consistency is what makes handloads accurate handloads.

 

[JGRaider]

People get a stupid amount of reloads by just bumping the shoulder back. We obviously have different strokes but if you have the body die I don't understand why you wouldn't bump the shoulder back to ensure you can reliable feed that cartridge in any condition. If you want consistency, that's it. If you're so concerned about brass life, what's your annealing process?

But this is a hobby where you can do things a million different ways. As long as you're happy that's all that matters.

I choose to work the brass as little as possible. Bumping shoulders every loading has never been necessary for me to make accurate, long lasting, ammo that is easy to feed. It's a non issue which is why I do it like I do. YMMV.

 

[SloppyJ]

I 100% agree with Koda on this one. You state that you're looking for a simple solution and that is shoulder bumping with a FL sizing die. All you need to purchase is a FL sizing die and a seating die. That's it, you're done.

Like we both said, the comparator tool is a must have. If you get consistent results with the sockets, then hats off and keep using what you have. The tool to measure to the ogive of the bullet is also a must have in my opinion for consistent seating depth.

If you start neck sizing, that's just one more die you have to buy because at some point you WILL FL size that brass to move the shoulder back so you can chamber it. I have quite a few neck sizing dies, they haven't seen the light of day since I decided to make it easier and bump the shoulder each firing with a FL die.

The other thing that no one mentioned in regards to consistency is that if you neck size the brass 4 times and have to bump it on the 5th, that 5th firing is the least consistent of all. I want the parameters of my brass to be the same for every firing.

What about some dust or dirt getting in your chamber or on your brass and now you can't chamber that brass in your gun when you're staring at an animal. Bumping the shoulder buys you a bit of wiggle room there.

The ONLY thing I'd consider a neck sizing die for would be the first 2 or so firings on new brass to really get it fire formed to your chamber before you start load dev. But with the price of components and barrel life of most of my rifles, not to mention the time, that's not something I'm interested in doing for 100 or 200 pieces of brass.

Anyway, I think you have enough info here to figure it all out. You're not doing it wrong but throw the idea out of your head that screwing the die in to touch the shell holder is too much. It needs to be screwed in as far as it needs to be for your chamber. Also know that the first firing might not blow the shoulder out far enough to match your chamber. Try rechambering that once fired brass to see if you really need to bump it back before you do.

 

[Choupique]

Try rechambering that once fired brass to see if you really need to bump it back before you do.

It took quite a few shots of neck sizing before it got tight to chamber them. I wish I had tracked it better, but I'm pretty sure after the 3rd firing was when it finally got tight. I figured based on that my rifle has a fairly loose chamber, so maybe that's why I need the die ran all the way down?

You're not doing it wrong but throw the idea out of your head that screwing the die in to touch the shell holder is too much. It needs to be screwed in as far as it needs to be for your chamber.

That's what I came here looking for.

Like we both said, the comparator tool is a must have.

Ok, I give up. I'll buy one, but I'm checking it against my socket tester once I have it.

 

[Koda_]

It took quite a few shots of neck sizing before it got tight to chamber them. I wish I had tracked it better, but I'm pretty sure after the 3rd firing was when it finally got tight. I figured based on that my rifle has a fairly loose chamber, so maybe that's why I need the die ran all the way down?

FL dies are not seating dies, FL dies are supposed to screw all the way down till they make contact with the shell holder and then locked in place.
If you shoulder bump, you would only back the FL out by probably less than .010", thats maybe not even 1/8" of a turn.

If you want to make it easier to "see" get that Forster Accu ring with your guage order. The rings are cheap enough.

 

[SloppyJ]

Ok, I give up. I'll buy one, but I'm checking it against my socket tester once I have it.

Hahaha, man it's your money. Do what you want but those harnady tools are the things I use the most. Literally every time I reload. The bullet comparator might be even more important.

Let me know what you find when you compare the two!

 

[Choupique]

I'll be back with comparisons and many more questions.

While I got yall, what do yall make of RL17 making ripping speed vs book data? Bad chronograph? Barrel is 2" longer than test barrel, OAL about 0.015" over book length, speeds 150 to 200fps over book max, and I'm 1gr under book max charge.

 

[WeiserBucks]

I'll be back with comparisons and many more questions.

While I got yall, what do yall make of RL17 making ripping speed vs book data? Bad chronograph? Barrel is 2" longer than test barrel, OAL about 0.015" over book length, speeds 150 to 200fps over book max, and I'm 1gr under book max charge.

I'd be suspicious about the chronograph.

 

[Choupique]

I am. Seems like everything comes in faster than it should. Once the grass dies I'll be able to shoot at 800 yards and see if it's accurate or not.

 

[Koda_]

what kind of chrono?

 

[Choupique]

Some kind of Caldwell rig.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Some kind of Caldwell rig.

I've got a similar one and it's all over the place day to day.

 

[Koda_]

Caldwells have been one of the most popular chronos, affordable and accurate. Ive compared mine to another chrono and everything was within 25fps of each other, at the most.