Fragments in Meat?

Chris in TN said:
Your list of facts isn't complete.

So, to answer you....1) as a whole, copper still sucks. Some designs work better than others but in general terms all-copper projectiles still aren't all that great in either BC or terminal performance. Lead-core bullet tech is simply more mature and there's no way around that reality. Also, 2) unfortunately, there's the reality that pushes for copper use are often tied to political stances that go far outside the scope of the health risks involved. Sucks, but it's real.
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You’re right. My list of facts is incomplete. I’ve got a lot more where that came from 😜.

So start with point #1 - What sucks about copper bullets ? Tell me an instance where a lead bullet will kill an animal that a copper bullet out of the same gun won’t.

And to your #2 point about political stances affecting bullet choice, I agree. States that mandated copper probably did way more damage than good. As soon as you start mandating anything, people will resist. I think that’s a big part of the reason why there’s so many anti copper guys. “ DON’T CALIFORNICATE MY BULLETS !” People are also often emotionally invested in the bullet they chose. People want to believe they made the best choice so they see everything through that filter.

Chris in TN said:
Also, 3) whether you're getting lead in your meat - and to what extent - depends a great deal on where you're hitting the animal, what you're hitting it with, and the degree to which you trim around the wounds. People constantly tell half-truths to get around this. I absolutely don't suggest that people send a bloodshot shoulder to a processor for grinding. Or make high shoulder shots, or hindquarter shots, or spine shots. Or neck shots. But butchering at home allows a great deal of control over the process and if you're shooting animals in the heart and/or lower lungs, staying out of the shoulders, and trimming heavily, not shooting highly frangible bullets at high speeds at close range, you can mitigate, if not perfectly eliminate, the risks. Bullet fragments are still subject to the laws of physics and smaller fragments aren't penetrating *that* far away from the impact site. Being willing to trim generously and not try to get rib meat or the lower shank of the front leg (neither of which I want, TBH, even if the animal was shot in the head) goes a long way.

Also, 4) it's easy to test for lead levels and when my kids were younger I actually did it (because I used to cast bullets a lot and worried once that they'd broke into my lead stash and played in it) and, apparently they hadn't eaten any, because their levels came back so low that the nurses said 'I told you it was a waste' and sort of low-key chided my wife for even having the tests done. At the time they were eating a lot of game (as we still do) including not only deer shot with rifles but squirrels shot with both .22lr and shotguns. And I've had my own tests over the years (I have health issues that *could have been* caused by heavy metal exposure, but were not) and have always tested very low even after a lifetime of eating game meat, and some of it cared for much more casually back in the day, compared to what we do now.

Next, 5) I have zero control over the big studies showing lead fragments in most game meat. I don't know where or how the shots were made, I don't know how well the animal was trimmed or whether the meat was kept properly separated from other animals or whether the grinders or saws or even knives and work surfaces were cleaned between animals. Therefore I have no real way of correlating those studies to my own game consumption, and 6) I also don't know who funded those studies or what political biases they might have. Then, 7) I don't use saws on my animals. I generally won't even use commercial processors unless the animal was shot through the ribs (no shoulder) and our local processors don't try to salvage rib meat anyway. I can usually avoid a lot of potential by simply not handing a mangled piece of meat to a processor in the first place. Every piece of meat I touch here at home, I am completely aware of where the animal was hit, and with what, and how the bullet behaved, and have complete control over how much trimming I do (and I do a lot when called for - venison isn't particularly hard to come by in this part of the world).

I'm not making fun of anyone here. I do think I've demonstrated that your statements are inaccurate or incomplete, though. You should at least acknowledge that there's more to the issue than the short list of 'facts' you threw down earlier as if they were some sort of trump card.
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#3 Some meat has more lead than others is what you’re saying. Agree, but my point that all animals shot with lead will contain lead is in fact, a fact. Lead bullets fracture into thousands of pieces inside the animal. Look at ballistics gel tests. The lead is in there, you just can’t see it.

#4 Personal, subjective experience does not make an arguable case. All the guys saying “ me and my friends been eating lead for years and we turned out just fine” doesn’t carry much weight. Partly because it’s a tiny sample size with way too many variables for the data to mean anything.

I stand by the facts I stated as they are provable facts and I have already provided the proof in my previous post with all that nerdy science stuff. But if people do their own research and look for evidence of lead and its effects on humans it’s as plain as day. On the other hand, If people continue to look for reasons why lead is just fine, they’ll find that too.
 
HunterGatherer said:
You’re right. My list of facts is incomplete. I’ve got a lot more where that came from .

So start with point #1 - What sucks about copper bullets ? Tell me an instance where a lead bullet will kill an animal that a copper bullet out of the same gun won’t.

And to your #2 point about political stances affecting bullet choice, I agree. States that mandated copper probably did way more damage than good. As soon as you start mandating anything, people will resist. I think that’s a big part of the reason why there’s so many anti copper guys. “ DON’T CALIFORNICATE MY BULLETS !” People are also often emotionally invested in the bullet they chose. People want to believe they made the best choice so they see everything through that filter.


#3 Some meat has more lead than others is what you’re saying. Agree, but my point that all animals shot with lead will contain lead is in fact, a fact. Lead bullets fracture into thousands of pieces inside the animal. Look at ballistics gel tests. The lead is in there, you just can’t see it.

#4 Personal, subjective experience does not make an arguable case. All the guys saying “ me and my friends been eating lead for years and we turned out just fine” doesn’t carry much weight. Partly because it’s a tiny sample size with way too many variables for the data to mean anything.

I stand by the facts I stated as they are provable facts and I have already provided the proof in my previous post with all that nerdy science stuff. But if people do their own research and look for evidence of lead and its effects on humans it’s as plain as day. On the other hand, If people continue to look for reasons why lead is just fine, they’ll find that too.
Click to expand...

By the way, if you don’t want to shoot lead bullets, you don’t have to do that. No one is making you use them.
 
Q_Sertorius said:
This isn’t true. Even in people who eat nothing but wild game, lead levels are not elevated above the baseline. The thing that elevates lead levels is cleaning firearms.
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That’s only a correlation. Got links ? People who eat mainly wild game probably make a lot of other health-based choices and typically live a diff lifestyle than those who live in a city and buy everything at the supermarket so comparing lead numbers of hunters to non hunters doesn’t prove anything
 
HunterGatherer said:
You’re right. My list of facts is incomplete. I’ve got a lot more where that came from 😜.

So start with point #1 - What sucks about copper bullets ? Tell me an instance where a lead bullet will kill an animal that a copper bullet out of the same gun won’t.

And to your #2 point about political stances affecting bullet choice, I agree. States that mandated copper probably did way more damage than good. As soon as you start mandating anything, people will resist. I think that’s a big part of the reason why there’s so many anti copper guys. “ DON’T CALIFORNICATE MY BULLETS !” People are also often emotionally invested in the bullet they chose. People want to believe they made the best choice so they see everything through that filter.


#3 Some meat has more lead than others is what you’re saying. Agree, but my point that all animals shot with lead will contain lead is in fact, a fact. Lead bullets fracture into thousands of pieces inside the animal. Look at ballistics gel tests. The lead is in there, you just can’t see it.

#4 Personal, subjective experience does not make an arguable case. All the guys saying “ me and my friends been eating lead for years and we turned out just fine” doesn’t carry much weight. Partly because it’s a tiny sample size with way too many variables for the data to mean anything.

I stand by the facts I stated as they are provable facts and I have already provided the proof in my previous post with all that nerdy science stuff. But if people do their own research and look for evidence of lead and its effects on humans it’s as plain as day. On the other hand, If people continue to look for reasons why lead is just fine, they’ll find that too.
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1) Killing versus not killing isn't the question. It's about efficiency, cost (yes, cost), reliable performance from new designs....again, the tech simply isn't mature and you should acknowledge this.
2) Agreed.
3) bolding the word 'thousands' doesn't change anything. A thousand fragment in a lung that gets discarded, is of no danger whatsoever per se. The question is the degree to which the impacted area where one or a hundred or a thousand fragments might be, is trimmed, and whether any theoretical remaining fragments represent a legitimate health threat. History indicates that the risks as you present them, are overstated. Note carefully that I am not arguing that lead is safe, or that fragments don't matter.

4) a single subjective example can and sometimes does demand the rejection of an overarching hypothesis. When you argue that meat from a lead bullet can never be safe, you concede the argument, as 'never' is an impossible bar to prove. All we have to do is show you a single safe example.

You can stand by your 'facts' but at the end of the day you're attempting to overstate the case and some of us here see through it. We've shown you why, and you have no further excuse when you mischaracterize us or our arguments. There's no need for our side to say more.
 
Individual shotshell pellets in birds, yes. I either saw the entrance holes in the meat, then dug the pellets out, or if I happened to bite into one when I was eating it, I just spit it out.

I have been cutting, grinding, and packaging my own North American big game animals since shooting my first deer back in 1965. I cut out and discard all of the bloodshot tissue in the wound channel and sometimes find the bullet at the end of that channel or in larger animals, just under the skin on the far side. I have never found any bullet fragments in the clean meat outside of the wound channel, except...

One year, while cutting the neck meat of a deer I found a .35 caliber bullet. The lead bullet core had separated from the jacket, and it was lodged against a vertebrae bone, and a membrane had grown completely around the copper jacket. The wound had completely healed, and other than finding the bullet, there wasn't any other indication that the animal had been shot.
 
Powerbelts on elk and deer have shed lead frags over 2 feet from the point of impact. I had a thanksgiving dinner somewhat ruined when the mother in law chomped down on a full pencil eraser sized chunk of lead in her smoked elk backstrap, the loud "TINK" when she dropped it on her plate was deafening and everyone else at the table suddenly lost their appetite... Since then I've used Federal Copper Borelock .50 cal bullets and they wreck animals in a hurry and without frags. Also finding #7 lead shot in pheasant and quail used to be routine before jumping to #5 bismuth loads. Given the evidence from X-ray studies on deer and elk shot with lead rifle ammo, Im sure I ate micro frags from the Rem core-locks I used for the 20 years before switching to Barnes.
 
Q_Sertorius said:
This was a pretty good podcast:

Click to expand...
It was a good podcast and I agree with the guest on many points. However, the Arizona study he sited as proof that the lead (that he admits is in a large percentage of game meat) is safe for the average family, is based on the “average Arizona family who eats game 4.8 times per month”. My family eats game 4.8 times a day 😅.

Since it’s always difficult to avoid some hurt feelings when debating religion and ballistics, I’ll agree that it may not be a serious concern for some households, like the ones that only occasionally eat game meat- so as not to overstate or overemphasize my perspective that the pros of copper bullets far outweigh the cons.

Shoot whatever you like 👍. The OP was asking about visible lead in meat and I thought it was worth pointing out that most of the lead is invisible to the naked eye and can be very far away from the main wound channel, meaning that you can never guarantee that there is no lead in your meat without an x ray machine.
 
HunterGatherer said:
Funny how the pro lead guys never have any good points to support their opinions- they just make fun of people who don’t eat lead. 😂
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It goes both ways. The last time this topic came up I asked if anyone had ever had their family tested and changed their bullet choice as a result, and then retested to see if there was a difference. Zero response. That thread was mostly guys like you berating everyone who shoots lead bullets for endangering the lives of our families. For those of us that continue to use lead bullets we have read the literature and think the danger of lead exposure from hunting bullets is overstated. You've read the same literature and have come to a different conclusion. Now everyone can go away thinking they are right and everyone else is stupid.

Just so we cover all our bases, copper isn't safe either:
www.webmd.com

What to Know About Copper Toxicity

Find out what you need to know about copper toxicity, and discover the pros, cons, risks, and benefits, and how it may affect health.
www.webmd.com www.webmd.com

And while we're at it, you might as well give up drinking because it is now considered that no amount of alcohol is safe. (I don't drink, maybe you don't either, but I'm willing to bet that most hunters, whether they shoot copper or not, drink alcohol.)

News: No Amount Of Alcohol Is Good For Your... (NPR News) - Behind the headlines - NLM

(NPR News) No Amount Of Alcohol Is Good For Your Health, Global Study Says. Associated research findings from the National Library of Medicine.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

OP
I have occasionally found lead fragments when butchering game. In all cases, the fragments were very near the bullet wound and almost always associated with bone fragments. That could be shoulder, ribs, or spine. I have never found any lead fragments in any of my final cuts that have been prepared for consumption.
 
I’ve found all kinds of bullets in game while quartering in the field or processing at home.

I have never found bullets or fragments in my meat when I have consumed it.
 
idelkslayer said:
It goes both ways. The last time this topic came up I asked if anyone had ever had their family tested and changed their bullet choice as a result, and then retested to see if there was a difference. Zero response. That thread was mostly guys like you berating everyone who shoots lead bullets for endangering the lives of our families. For those of us that continue to use lead bullets we have read the literature and think the danger of lead exposure from hunting bullets is overstated. You've read the same literature and have come to a different conclusion. Now everyone can go away thinking they are right and everyone else is stupid.

Just so we cover all our bases, copper isn't safe either:
www.webmd.com

What to Know About Copper Toxicity

Find out what you need to know about copper toxicity, and discover the pros, cons, risks, and benefits, and how it may affect health.
www.webmd.com www.webmd.com

And while we're at it, you might as well give up drinking because it is now considered that no amount of alcohol is safe. (I don't drink, maybe you don't either, but I'm willing to bet that most hunters, whether they shoot copper or not, drink alcohol.)

News: No Amount Of Alcohol Is Good For Your... (NPR News) - Behind the headlines - NLM

(NPR News) No Amount Of Alcohol Is Good For Your Health, Global Study Says. Associated research findings from the National Library of Medicine.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

OP
I have occasionally found lead fragments when butchering game. In all cases, the fragments were very near the bullet wound and almost always associated with bone fragments. That could be shoulder, ribs, or spine. I have never found any lead fragments in any of my final cuts that have been prepared for consumption.
Click to expand...
For the record, I didn’t berate anyone. I agree that confirmation bias greatly influences people’s decisions, both ways.
 
HunterGatherer said:
Lead poisoning is acute and you likely will not get actual lead poisoning unless you eat a lot of lead in a very short time. Instead, You will get a buildup of lead in your system over time, resulting in symptoms that are difficult to attribute to a specific cause, like losing 3-7 IQ points for example.

As to your question about lead affecting birds more than mammals- I haven’t looked up stats but it stands to reason that it’s due to their much smaller volume of blood. 10mcg in an animal with 3oz of blood is a lot higher concentration than 10mcg in an animal with quarts or gallons of blood.

The bottom line is, why would you choose to eat lead when it’s completely unnecessary. Give me one good argument for shooting lead vs copper. Keep in mind, before you start talking about expansion and wound channels, etc that hunters have killed millions of animals over thousands of years with pointy sticks (arrows).
Click to expand...
California passed the copper bullet laws to save the condors - not people.

The reason birds succumb to lead poisoning more is due to them grinding their food in their crops. Mammals are more likely to crap out a chunk of lead (or copper) without it being digested and affecting us.

I asked you about the birds to see what your actual level of education about the overall topic is.

I'm older have no desire to start hunting with copper. Also, I work with environmental contaminants for a living and find the lead bullet thing to be flawed and more of a fear promoting thing.
 
Several years ago lead was found in donated meat. The meat was discarded. Food for the hungry a vast amount. Then they tested people that ate game and people that didn't. Those that didn't were found to have more lead than those that did.
 
HunterGatherer said:
View attachment 963797

Lead Bullet Fragments in Venison from Rifle-Killed Deer: Potential for Human Dietary Exposure - PMC

Human consumers of wildlife killed with lead ammunition may be exposed to health risks associated with lead ingestion. This hypothesis is based on published studies showing elevated blood lead concentrations in subsistence hunter populations, ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

View attachment 963822View attachment 963823
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No more miller lites for you!
IMG_7340.jpeg
 
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