Force Fetch vs Hold Conditioning vs ??

[jimh406]

Completely disagree. A dog that FF knows receiving it a job. A dog that just receives because it's natural or fun can an any time decide to eat your game or maybe turn it into a game of catch me if you can.

Of course, any dog can refuse to do it's job no matter how you trained it.

 

[KurtR]

My point is that dogs were bred for hundreds of years to be good hunting partners. They shouldn't require force to do something that is a basic breed characteristic.

Your not forcing them to retrieve. Your teaching pressure on pressure off. Force fetch is just a name if a dog doesn’t retrieve that is a whole issue in its self

 

[cod007]

I, for one, am enjoying this discussion.

 

[jimh406]

Your not forcing them to retrieve. Your teaching pressure on pressure off. Force fetch is just a name if a dog doesn’t retrieve that is a whole issue in its self

It was absolutely developed to help dogs learn to retrieve. I'm not saying it might not help with other things.

The person who gets credit for developing the technique, David Sanborn, used it to train his Pointers and Setters to retrieve. https://www.nodakoutdoors.com/threads/a-gentler-method-of-force-fetch.43951/

It all started back in the 1800s when a man named David Sanborn developed the technique to train his pointers and setters to retrieve. Many of these dogs have no natural retrieving instincts, so Mr. Sanborn worked out a structured method of teaching these dogs to hold, then carry, then reach for a piece of dowel, broom stick, or even a corn cob. Once the dogs would do that, birds were substituted for the other objects, and the dog became a reliable retriever within the limits of what is expected of bird dogs.

 

[MJB]

My Jagds don't do well with FF, too soft if you can believe that.

Start early, be consistent & ALWAYS END ON A GOOD NOTE.

 

[KurtR]

It was absolutely developed to help dogs learn to retrieve. I'm not saying it might not help with other things.

The person who gets credit for developing the technique, David Sanborn, used it to train his Pointers and Setters to retrieve. https://www.nodakoutdoors.com/threads/a-gentler-method-of-force-fetch.43951/

It all started back in the 1800s when a man named David Sanborn developed the technique to train his pointers and setters to retrieve. Many of these dogs have no natural retrieving instincts, so Mr. Sanborn worked out a structured method of teaching these dogs to hold, then carry, then reach for a piece of dowel, broom stick, or even a corn cob. Once the dogs would do that, birds were substituted for the other objects, and the dog became a reliable retriever within the limits of what is expected of bird dogs.

Ok for pointers i will say sure i dont train them and never have. For labs if they dont naturally retrieve no one is putting the time in they will be some ones pet. Ff is a building block.

Side note didnt even know nodak was still in operation.

 

[JBrew]

Similar to the hotdog discussion....Is a silver lab, a lab???

 

[Billinsd]

How many boykins have you trained? While I am 100% that ff is needed . If you can’t read a dog and they loose attitude then you better figure out how to change that or find a pro that can. Listened to Danny Farmer the other day and he said one of the most proud things he has done is a dog has never tucked tail and got a bad attitude with him. The difference being a dog man or just a guy that trains dogs.

Whoa, whoa, whoa........How many boykins have I trained, you mean seen? I don't think any. You are 100% ff is needed, huh? I agree about being able to read a dog, I prefer to buy well bred dogs with a greater chance of being easier to train. Danny Farmer? He said what? Well good for him and good for him, so what? I'm a hunter that knows a teeny weeny bit about dogs and training, but dislike dishonest, misleading information put out by charlatans. There are LOTS of different and GOOD ways to train hunting dogs, however there are lots of charlatans that holler, advertise the loudest. Just like most things, I suppose. Carry on!!!!

 

[Billinsd]

My Jagds don't do well with FF, too soft if you can believe that.

Start early, be consistent & ALWAYS END ON A GOOD NOTE.

I believe that, because you are the Jaqds sensei....

 

[Billinsd]

Your not forcing them to retrieve. Your teaching pressure on pressure off. Force fetch is just a name if a dog doesn’t retrieve that is a whole issue in its self

I'll agree with you on this. Force Fetch is a command, it's like sit or here. FF is much more difficult to train than the other obedience commands by far. Is it necessary, should you do it? That's strictly personal.

 

[Billinsd]

Of course, any dog can refuse to do it's job no matter how you trained it.

That's possible with a well trained FF dog, however, INCREDIBLY unlikely. When a dog is FF correctly with force and then transition to the e collar you are able to correct a dog if it refuses. It is like a dog that is well trained to sit and stay. If it is indeed well trained to do so, it isn't likely to move even under great temptation and if it does you correct him. FF is a command, similar to sit, heel, here. Cheers

 

[Billinsd]

Although FF will make the dog more reliable, it shouldn't be needed for a Lab with good breeding. A good Lab should love to retrieve. Not saying you can't get a nitro blooded Lab that doesn't, but hopefully, that's not what you bought unless you plan to field trial. They are a lot more work.

My experience has been if anything, dogs love retrieving game more than dummies etc unless you have one that isn't birdy or is timid. In that case, you have other issues.

I agree with you mostly. Some people, myself included prefer to hunt with field trail dogs. Field Trial Retrievers are AMAZING to work and to watch as hunting dogs!!! Nothing wrong with hunting with field trial retrievers or retrievers that are not. It's personal preference. My GSPs are field trial bred and I love them, and no they aren't for everyone. Cheers, Bill

 

[KurtR]

Whoa, whoa, whoa........How many boykins have I trained, you mean seen? I don't think any. You are 100% ff is needed, huh? I agree about being able to read a dog, I prefer to buy well bred dogs with a greater chance of being easier to train. Danny Farmer? He said what? Well good for him and good for him, so what? I'm a hunter that knows a teeny weeny bit about dogs and training, but dislike dishonest, misleading information put out by charlatans. There are LOTS of different and GOOD ways to train hunting dogs, however there are lots of charlatans that holler, advertise the loudest. Just like most things, I suppose. Carry on!!!!

I dont know if you were calling Danny Farmer any of those things but he is world class. You brought up evan so i assumed you would know who he is. I dont think he has to holler much as his dogs take care of that.

Since 1981 Danny has competed in every National Open. On average, he has qualified 5 dogs per year and tied the record for number of qualifiers with 9. Danny has won 4 National Opens, one in every decade. He holds the record for winning more Opens than any other professional trainer including an amazing 18 open wins in a row. In 2011 he was voted into the Retriever Hall of Fame.

Danny lives in Anderson, Texas and retriever training continues to be his passion

 

[Billinsd]

I dont know if you were calling Danny Farmer any of those things but he is world class. You brought up evan so i assumed you would know who he is. I dont think he has to holler much as his dogs take care of that.

Since 1981 Danny has competed in every National Open. On average, he has qualified 5 dogs per year and tied the record for number of qualifiers with 9. Danny has won 4 National Opens, one in every decade. He holds the record for winning more Opens than any other professional trainer including an amazing 18 open wins in a row. In 2011 he was voted into the Retriever Hall of Fame.

Danny lives in Anderson, Texas and retriever training continues to be his passion

No, I'm not calling Danny any names. Not mentioning anyone, just if the shoe fits. And talking about my experiences. My cousin and her husband from Wisconsin go to Texas in the winter to train their Labs, it could very well be with Danny. I don't follow the retriever stuff anymore, since owning GSPs. Carry on.

 

[WRO]

No, I'm not calling Danny any names. Not mentioning anyone, just if the shoe fits. And talking about my experiences. My cousin and her husband from Wisconsin go to Texas in the winter to train their Labs, it could very well be with Danny. I don't follow the retriever stuff anymore, since owning GSPs. Carry on.

Lol, since I got setters the amount of shits I could give about retrieving dogs has gone to 0. They have no style, just how well you can train a dog to carry stuff around.

 

[ShakeDown]

Well, this conversation has taken a strange turn. I appreciate all of the constructive comments!

 

[KurtR]

Well, this conversation has taken a strange turn. I appreciate all of the constructive comments!

I dont know where you live but if you can find an hrc or akc club they are both worth joining

 

[MJB]

My 1yr Zika now holds and stands up........love these Jagds this should save me from bending over lol!

 

[GCMan]

You guys are making me miss my Shorthair. Pure 100% hunter to the bone. This is her hunting Teal on the Mississippi. She's looking for passing birds.

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

I’m a Draht guy.

I’m guessing you used too much correction with your dog. You can “force fetch” dog with very little forcing. It’s not really any different than teaching a dog to sit, or anything else. The main thing is training to a point of reliablity, and not just the dog retrieving when it wants to.

Retrieving is usually not a priority for breeders of setters.

Did you Test your dog?