Force Fetch vs Hold Conditioning vs ??

[eldeuce]

Remember that the dog will likely react differently to actual, retrieved game animals than it will to a dummy/bumper.
IMHO both force fetch AND hold conditioning is mandatory if you're ever going to test the dog, or if you expect a higher level of field performance.
If you don't test, and just want consistent retrieves, and you don't do hold conditioning, you still run the risk of game being dropped before ever getting to you. Unacceptable for me as a handler.

 

[displacedtexan]

I appreciate all the input!

Just collecting data right now, but for the person that asked: Labrador Retriever. General hunting dog, primarily upland.

I'd expect him (or her) to have a pretty natural retrieve.

I run field trial type Pointers, and care more about manners looking for birds and pointing. I can't see myself force fetching a dog, or teaching place beyond "stay" which I use to keep them from crossing a barrier. Stay in or out of the house/shop/truck/etc.

Both have their place, but does it matter to you?

 

[displacedtexan]

Remember that the dog will likely react differently to actual, retrieved game animals than it will to a dummy/bumper.
IMHO both force fetch AND hold conditioning is mandatory if you're ever going to test the dog, or if you expect a higher level of field performance.
If you don't test, and just want consistent retrieves, and you don't do hold conditioning, you still run the risk of game being dropped before ever getting to you. Unacceptable for me as a handler.

Not for AF field trials. We don't shoot birds.

 

[Holocene]

Freddie King's approach and demeanor is good.

I also benefited from an article called A Gentler Force Fetch from Delta Waterfowl. Many nuggets of wisdom in this article.

What helps me and my Boykin spaniel (a dog known for shutting down easy) is using praise and/or attrition to teach and mild correction to enforce.

Praise didn't work great for me during force fetch because 1) if using food the pup would open her mouth to accept the food and thus drop whatever she was supposed to be holding and 2) verbal praise alone could cause her to smile and feel the verbal praise as "task complete" when the task is not complete until the next step, which is "drop" or "give" or whatever command you choose to get the object.

Attrition was huge -- and when I say "attrition" I mean you keep asking the dog to do the command until there is no option to do anything else so they yield. This strategy must be done with stone cold patience and hard love. No e-collar, no punishment, just keep putting the object in the pup's mouth and holding it there until they submit. That's attrition. Showing the pup that you are the (gentle) boss and that the best thing they can do to get on with their day is just hold the stinking bumper.

That's the start at least. Timed holds are the next step. I read on a forum once about a guy who'd get his dog to hold and then go in and make a sandwich for 10 minutes and come back and that dog was still sitting their holding a bumper. Sweet.

I started "hold" with a thin piece of pvc with hot dog rubbed all over it. Then moved on to my hand in a leather glove. Then my gloveless hand. Then a weighted pet dumbell that I got off Amazon. Then a bigger one of those. Then FINALLY bumpers (which she loves of course), bird wings, and frozen / live birds in that order. Two major concepts here: you introduce things that they have no instinctual interest in first (the dowells) to teach the concept of hold and then once they understand "hold" as a command you build up to birds. At first, pup will want to chew and plan and run away with the bird -- if you have a birdy dog anyway.

Last comment, your hand in glove and finally bare hand is an AWESOME tactic for keeping pup from chewing on birds. If they chew on your hand, you scream "OW!" and pup likes you, so she doesn't want to hurt you and won't bite. Later, when pup chews on a bumpeer or bird, you scream "OW!" and pup knows, okay, that hurts and I'm not supposed to chew. I hate hunting with mouthy retrievers. Don't let your pup be a bird eater.

 

[Billinsd]

Evan Graham Smart Fetch is the best, easiest to understand if you buy the book and videos to do yourself. However, for me FF is the most godawful dog obedience training. I'm far too impatient, awkward and heavy handed to do it worth a damn. It's great to have FF for a retriever for ducks, however for upland my GSP has a great natural retrieve and FF would have been far too big a chore for what I would have gained. Once a dog has been FF correctly he has the deepest understanding of obedience and his master. Like all obedience involving pressure it takes away a little from the dog and the more heavy handed and inconsistent and longer you take the less animated the dog will be, with the worst case being a robotic and anxious dog. Soft dogs respond poorly to pressure, whereas a sensitive dog is good because you can use lower pressure and a hard dog is tough, because you have to turn it up. However, I've only FF'd a few dogs, so I am by no means an expert. I prefer to buy well bred dogs that have a strong prey, ball drive and are bidable, which makes everything much easier. I collar condition my dogs to whoa, here, heal, and down.

 

[cacklercrazy]

Hi all,

Curious on people’s viewpoints on training a dog to Hold. What Is your opinion? Your experience?

Just doing initial research and looking for avaiable perspective.

Thanks!

Always FF. Makes the dog better. My GSH wouldn't retrieve a bird until taught FF. Point, hold a point, find a bird,but wouldn't pick it up. My lab loves to fetch,but still taught FF to her. It makes them stay with one bird when multiple birds are down in the field. Also if it's taught correctly it can prevent the dog from dropping a bird when coming out of a pond or before bring it back to hand.

 

[Billinsd]

Freddie King's approach and demeanor is good.

I also benefited from an article called A Gentler Force Fetch from Delta Waterfowl. Many nuggets of wisdom in this article.

What helps me and my Boykin spaniel (a dog known for shutting down easy) is using praise and/or attrition to teach and mild correction to enforce.

Praise didn't work great for me during force fetch because 1) if using food the pup would open her mouth to accept the food and thus drop whatever.

That training sounds like it works great for you and I'm not saying it wouldn't. However, when I read forceless, force fetch I stopped reading because I knew the rest would be gibberish. Force fetch training without any forcing or gentle only forcing is not force training by definition it's something else all together. It's like calling flag football, gentle tackle football. It's like touchless corporal punishment. Force Fetch is a command that the dog MUST obey!! Doesn't matter if that duck is nasty and boody or he doesn't want to. He's made to fetch and hold uncomfortable objects for as long as he's commanded to do so. Anything less is not force fetching. There are lots of different ways to train a dog to retrieve and that's great, however there's one basic way to force fetch that Rex Carr taught Mike Lardy and Evan Graham and the pointer guys use with a toe pinch. The common denominator is pain, pressure avoidance. Cheers

 

[KurtR]

That training sounds like it works great for you and I'm not saying it wouldn't. However, when I read forceless, force fetch I stopped reading because I knew the rest would be gibberish. Force fetch training without any forcing or gentle only forcing is not force training by definition it's something else all together. It's like calling flag football, gentle tackle football. It's like touchless corporal punishment. Force Fetch is a command that the dog MUST obey!! Doesn't matter if that duck is nasty and boody or he doesn't want to. He's made to fetch and hold uncomfortable objects for as long as he's commanded to do so. Anything less is not force fetching. There are lots of different ways to train a dog to retrieve and that's great, however there's one basic way to force fetch that Rex Carr taught Mike Lardy and Evan Graham and the pointer guys use with a toe pinch. The common denominator is pain, pressure avoidance. Cheers

How many boykins have you trained? While I am 100% that ff is needed . If you can’t read a dog and they loose attitude then you better figure out how to change that or find a pro that can. Listened to Danny Farmer the other day and he said one of the most proud things he has done is a dog has never tucked tail and got a bad attitude with him. The difference being a dog man or just a guy that trains dogs.

 

[jimh406]

Although FF will make the dog more reliable, it shouldn't be needed for a Lab with good breeding. A good Lab should love to retrieve. Not saying you can't get a nitro blooded Lab that doesn't, but hopefully, that's not what you bought unless you plan to field trial. They are a lot more work.

My experience has been if anything, dogs love retrieving game more than dummies etc unless you have one that isn't birdy or is timid. In that case, you have other issues.

 

[WCB]

IMO and I am not a dog trainer but have trained multiple dogs for myself that actually hunt. FF is not 100% needed for all dogs. The only two dogs we have had to FF are our two French Britts. the 5 Springers I have had and 1 lab have had ZERO need for it. Now maybe informally I taught this while playing with them at a young age but it wouldn't fit under the definition of force fetching. If they dropped a bird or dummy or ball I would just make them pick it up again or pick it up and have them grab it again and hold it. No real discipline besides that.

 

[Dexter Grayson]

To me, FF is a must with labs. When you spend 5 minutes retrieving a cripple that was already retrieved to you but dropped at your feet you tend to believe in FF.

As others have said Evan Graham breaks it down the best. Good luck.

 

[KurtR]

Although FF will make the dog more reliable, it shouldn't be needed for a Lab with good breeding. A good Lab should love to retrieve. Not saying you can't get a nitro blooded Lab that doesn't, but hopefully, that's not what you bought unless you plan to field trial. They are a lot more work.

My experience has been if anything, dogs love retrieving game more than dummies etc unless you have one that isn't birdy or is timid. In that case, you have other issues.

Thats a misconception it has nothing to do with retrieving its building on the pressure on pressure off to introduce the ecollar properly and build on that

 

[jimh406]

Thats a misconception it has nothing to do with retrieving its building on the pressure on pressure off to introduce the ecollar properly and build on that

What is a misconception?

 

[KurtR]

What is a misconception?

That it has any thing to do with the retrieving. Its a process to help build understanding of what is expected and what happens when you dont do it. If your dog does not have drive ff isnt going to build that.

 

[jimh406]

That it has any thing to do with the retrieving. Its a process to help build understanding of what is expected and what happens when you dont do it. If your dog does not have drive ff isnt going to build that.

I think you meant that you don't use FF to improve retrieving. That's your personal choice. However, it should be obvious, many people only use FF to make a reliable retriever. Btw, I didn't say FF will help drive either.

 

[KurtR]

I think you meant that you don't use FF to improve retrieving. That's your personal choice. However, it should be obvious, many people only use FF to make a reliable retriever. Btw, I didn't say FF will help drive either.

I use ff as a building block to go to yard work ie force to pile then t and on. You said a dog with good breeding should not need it. Im not under standing why they would not need it how do you collar condition with out it or move on to the more advanced training? Im always open to learning new things and reasons but like to see proof on how they work and the letters in front of names fc/afc do that.

 

[displacedtexan]

Always FF. Makes the dog better. My GSH wouldn't retrieve a bird until taught FF. Point, hold a point, find a bird,but wouldn't pick it up. My lab loves to fetch,but still taught FF to her. It makes them stay with one bird when multiple birds are down in the field. Also if it's taught correctly it can prevent the dog from dropping a bird when coming out of a pond or before bring it back to hand.

I don't FF because it doesn't really offer any upsides for me.

I bet I pop a blank pistol over 100 birds for every bird I shoot.

 

[jimh406]

I use ff as a building block to go to yard work ie force to pile then t and on. You said a dog with good breeding should not need it. Im not under standing why they would not need it how do you collar condition with out it or move on to the more advanced training? Im always open to learning new things and reasons but like to see proof on how they work and the letters in front of names fc/afc do that.

My point is that dogs were bred for hundreds of years to be good hunting partners. They shouldn't require force to do something that is a basic breed characteristic.

 

[GCMan]

I have FF two German shorthairs. IF you don't have experience, I would hire a professional with good references. Done wrong, FF are is really bad for your dog and you, done right, it's the best method. It's basically negative reinforcement for retrieving. My first dog I almost ruined because she was super bold and stubborn and it was my first FF experience. Second dog, was super soft and I knew what I was doing and it went much better.

 

[GCMan]

My point is that dogs were bred for hundreds of years to be good hunting partners. They shouldn't require force to do something that is a basic breed characteristic.

Completely disagree. A dog that FF knows retrieving it a job. A dog that just retrieves because it's natural or fun can an any time decide to eat your game or maybe turn it into a game of catch me if you can.