Fix Our Forests Act

[HunterGatherer]

Idaho to ‘double’ logging efforts under new USFS wildfire agreement – Wildfire Today

wildfiretoday.com

 

[jimh406]

One of the sponsors, Tim Sheehy (MT) made much of his money putting out fires, Bridger Aerospace. I'm not sure what angle he would have other than preventing huge fires.

In any case, there needs to be something other than let it burn. Not that burning is an issue, but too much of the wrong type is very expensive. In my area of MT, we regularly have prescribed burns. I'm not sure how much that happens in other areas.

 

[BuckSmasher]

Idaho to ‘double’ logging efforts under new USFS wildfire agreement – Wildfire Today

wildfiretoday.com

They log the Clearwater again like the 70s and 80s and the Lolo elk tag will become a good one again!

 

[HunterGatherer]

They log the Clearwater again like the 70s and 80s and the Lolo elk tag will become a good one again!

Can you please elaborate on this ? Is it because it hasn’t been logged since the 80’s ?

 

[HunterGatherer]

One of the sponsors, Tim Sheehy (MT) made much of his money putting out fires, Bridger Aerospace. I'm not sure what angle he would have other than preventing huge fires.

In any case, there needs to be something other than let it burn. Not that burning is an issue, but too much of the wrong type is very expensive. In my area of MT, we regularly have prescribed burns. I'm not sure how much that happens in other areas.

I posted a video from a Ted Talk on the first page of this thread where the forester describes “managed wildfires” - basically they don’t try to put fires out anymore unless they were human caused or threaten structures. It’s a really good video if you have the time to watch it.

The problem that I have observed with this is that the fire season has become a gravy train for companies contracted by the FS. Talk about wasteful spending, fraud and abuse. The FS firefighting program needs to be Doge’ed in a bad way…

 

[BuckSmasher]

Can you please elaborate on this ? Is it because it hasn’t been logged since the 80’s ?

Pretty much. Declining elk nutrition, combined with a severe winter in the mid 90s, with the re-introduction of wolves at the same time was too much for Lolo to handle. Biggest factor was early seral habitat. Very few elk in the Clearwater during the Lewis and Clark expedition. The combined effects of several super huge fires starting in 1910 and a whole bunch of mid-century logging and predator suppression is what led to its heyday. Elk are fecund when they have great habitat and can support a lot of harvest from humans and otherwise.

 

[TheTone]

They log the Clearwater again like the 70s and 80s and the Lolo elk tag will become a good one again!

Where would you propose the logs go and at what cost? So many less mills than there used to be and the cost to get them out of the woods has skyrocketed

 

[HunterGatherer]

Pretty much. Declining elk nutrition, combined with a severe winter in the mid 90s, with the re-introduction of wolves at the same time was too much for Lolo to handle. Biggest factor was early seral habitat. Very few elk in the Clearwater during the Lewis and Clark expedition. The combined effects of several super huge fires starting in 1910 and a whole bunch of mid-century logging and predator suppression is what led to its heyday. Elk are fecund when they have great habitat and can support a lot of harvest from humans and otherwise.

Sounds about right. The rhetoric has always been focused on “ wolves ate all the elk in the Lolo” but I think your assessment that it was multiple causes is much more likely.

 

[BuckSmasher]

Where would you propose the logs go and at what cost? So many less mills than there used to be and the cost to get them out of the woods has skyrocketed

I know next to nothing about the economics of the timber industry. I guess I could google and get somewhat of an education but I DO know that we have been importing lumber from Canada. Also know that there still several huge mills around here and I see a ton of logging trucks everyday. Maybe or probably with a guaranteed source of logs from NF investment will flow towards re-opening mills or retrofitting current mills to handle larger NF logs?

 

[BuckSmasher]

Sounds about right. The rhetoric has always been focused on “ wolves ate all the elk in the Lolo” but I think your assessment that it was multiple causes is much more likely.

100% This was known 15 to 20 years before wolf reintroduction. It was detailed in this seminal 1982 book in elk ecology. https://www.amazon.com/Elk-North-America-Ecology-Management/dp/0811705714

 

[TheTone]

From loggers and other people in the industry around here they aren’t hurting for logs currently. Log prices have plummeted from a couple years ago when the market got flooded due to high log prices

I think logging can absolutely help in certain areas but I’d like to see some real conditions put on areas to make it beneficial to wildlife. Close or take out any new roads built for wildlife security, stop spraying clearcuts with herbicide killing all the plants off, actually burn slash again so it’s not a complete mess afterwards, and replant with wildlife in mind. It doesn’t need to get turned into an overcrowded monoculture of trees for market. Maybe leave some openings and let nature do what it wants after

 

[HunterGatherer]

From loggers and other people in the industry around here they aren’t hurting for logs currently. Log prices have plummeted from a couple years ago when the market got flooded due to high log prices

I think logging can absolutely help in certain areas but I’d like to see some real conditions put on areas to make it beneficial to wildlife. Close or take out any new roads built for wildlife security, stop spraying clearcuts with herbicide killing all the plants off, actually burn slash again so it’s not a complete mess afterwards, and replant with wildlife in mind. It doesn’t need to get turned into an overcrowded monoculture of trees for market. Maybe leave some openings and let nature do what it wants after

Spot on. I’ve seen logged areas that became impenetrable jungles of brush post harvest. The lack of tree species provided be replanting is a major problem and part of what creates mega fires vs “healthy” fires. The difficult part is setting requirements on timber harvesting that addresses habitat concerns but also doesn’t add so much cost burden as to make the logging unprofitable. I think the NAFTA provided cheap lumber is the major cause of many of the problems we see today…

 

[wowzers]

I'm a forester, and a lot of the issues with USFS sales are they have no grounding in economic reality. They are sitting on a ton of great timber but will design the most jacked up units that take a beautiful cat strip and turn it into line ground that cost twice to three times as much to log. It is night and day when comparing a sale put out by IDL vs USFS. Couple this with a roads package that costs 5-10 times as much as a comparable IDL one and you don't have a real recipe for success.

As far as fire goes, the problem is it has become an industry itself. No one is interested in seeing them put out because that turns off the cash flow. Just look at the costs differences vs a State managed fire. https://pullmanradio.com/usfs-expec...unty-fully-contained-at-the-end-of-the-month/

 

[wowzers]

Where would you propose the logs go and at what cost? So many less mills than there used to be and the cost to get them out of the woods has skyrocketed

I can think of only one USFS sale in the area that went no bid in the last several years and it was reappraised and sold a few months later.

 

[N.ID7803]

From loggers and other people in the industry around here they aren’t hurting for logs currently. Log prices have plummeted from a couple years ago when the market got flooded due to high log prices

I think logging can absolutely help in certain areas but I’d like to see some real conditions put on areas to make it beneficial to wildlife. Close or take out any new roads built for wildlife security, stop spraying clearcuts with herbicide killing all the plants off, actually burn slash again so it’s not a complete mess afterwards, and replant with wildlife in mind. It doesn’t need to get turned into an overcrowded monoculture of trees for market. Maybe leave some openings and let nature do what it wants after

So you want no access in case of a fire?
Herbicides are only effective for at most a year and provide a tool to help future plantations which turn into forests succeed.
Would you carry the necessary insurance that is required to put fire onto your property, knowing that theirs a risk of it carrying onto someone else's property and getting sued?
What tree species do wildlife have in mind?
When you are in the business of growing trees, all the things you have stated have just put you out of business or made your future logs worth nothing at the next harvest, remember any and all costs put into the land after harvest are not gained back until the next harvest, so you carry that investment for 40-100 years.
The FS used to make money and fund itself through timber revenue, now they do everything they can to not make a dollar

 

[N.ID7803]

I'm a forester, and a lot of the issues with USFS sales are they have no grounding in economic reality. They are sitting on a ton of great timber but will design the most jacked up units that take a beautiful cat strip and turn it into line ground that cost twice to three times as much to log. It is night and day when comparing a sale put out by IDL vs USFS. Couple this with a roads package that costs 5-10 times as much as a comparable IDL one and you don't have a real recipe for success.

As far as fire goes, the problem is it has become an industry itself. No one is interested see them put out because that turns off the cash flow. Just look at the costs differences vs a State managed fire. https://pullmanradio.com/usfs-expec...unty-fully-contained-at-the-end-of-the-month/

I can think of only one USFS sale in the area that went no bid in the last several years and it was reappraised and sold a few months later.

 

[BuckSmasher]

I'm a forester, and a lot of the issues with USFS sales are they have no grounding in economic reality. They are sitting on a ton of great timber but will design the most jacked up units that take a beautiful cat strip and turn it into line ground that cost twice to three times as much to log. It is night and day when comparing a sale put out by IDL vs USFS. Couple this with a roads package that costs 5-10 times as much as a comparable IDL one and you don't have a real recipe for success.

As far as fire goes, the problem is it has become an industry itself. No one is interested in seeing them put out because that turns off the cash flow. Just look at the costs differences vs a State managed fire. https://pullmanradio.com/usfs-expec...unty-fully-contained-at-the-end-of-the-month/

What I got out is USFS puts crazy restrictions that make it unprofitable but what are 'cat strips' and 'line ground'?

 

[wowzers]

What I got out is USFS puts crazy restrictions that make it unprofitable but what are 'cat strips' and 'line ground'?

Cat is short for caterpillar or what is referred to as tractor ground, ie ground based mechanized skidding. Line ground is using yarders and skylines to skid the trees. Wait till we get to the hookers!