First Wolf Kill of Livestock in Colorado

[Trap]

That's a daydream. And frankly the F&G agencies are there to serve the landowners and wildlife owners, both public and private. Their job these days is to present the best unbiased science they can, educate people on the consequences of each alternative, and then let the people tell them what to do. That's what public servants do.

What you're suggesting - allowing the F&G agencies to make the decisions - would sound to many like government control of public resources - which is exactly what most western landowners fight against, is it not?

Thanks for the honest response. I disagree I think the public SHOULD have general input into broad goals but all decisions should be made independently by the wildlife professionals. This is how Idaho has been running it until recently when the legislature got involved in the wolf fiasco. Everyone had the right to their input on general goals but wildlife professionals make the individual management decisions not voters

 

[NABG Hunter]

This negative feedback loop will escalate quickly. Wolves eat elk > elk population declines > less elk means fewer hunters > less tag revenue for CPW + wolves eat livestock > CPW has to reimburse ranchers.

Revenue goes down and expenses go up.

Three decades from now, the kids of these urban yuppies who voted for wolf reintroduction will be trying to figure out how to save the elk without killing wolves or raising revenue from hunting.

I doubt it’ll take three decades.

 

[Marble]

That's a daydream. And frankly the F&G agencies are there to serve the landowners and wildlife owners, both public and private. Their job these days is to present the best unbiased science they can, educate people on the consequences of each alternative, and then let the people tell them what to do. That's what public servants do.

What you're suggesting - allowing the F&G agencies to make the decisions - would sound to many like government control of public resources - which is exactly what most western landowners fight against, is it not?

So using your logic, all decisions should be ran through the people when it comes to all things fish and game. What a disaster that would be.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

 

[Trap]

Trap, those two things are not mutually exclusive. In a perfect world, we'd have clear facts we can all agree on, and those facts would drive our decisions. But even then, different people have different goals for managing wildlife populations. And at the end of the day, the taxpayers have to be respected and listened to and their views matter because it's their resource too.

I'm not sure I ever said we shouldn't continue the NAWM but times have changed since it was developed and there is a much larger % of the public that is not hunting and wants different things from their natural resources. So the model should adapt to meet the customer's wishes. They also pay the bills.

Ok another honest response one more question than I’m done ha ha. What are the goals of those people/groups going full out on wolves and protecting them and other predators at any cost. They are systematically introducing and protecting predators almost exclusively. Seasons and methods are being removed for predator hunting and control. What is the objective or end game of these groups and individuals? Don’t say balance because many states are already 100 percent out of balance from excess predators. Specifically California, Oregon and Washington

 

[Trap]

I doubt it’ll take three decades.

Ten years

 

[SEPTEMBERCALLS]

Ten years

Depends on if your hunting spot is where they drop a pack…. Could be less than 10…. I just hope they dart as many Idaho wolves as possible for brood-stock…. I remember the first few howls in a couple backcountry areas that I used to backpack/hunt and then the years and years of going back to check with dreams of the days of old, just to find virtually game-less basins that were once truly epic places to hunt.

Notellum Creek
You were a truly magical place
1900-2004ish
R.I.P.

 

[Trap]

Depends on if your hunting spot is where they drop a pack…. Could be less than 10…. I just hope they dart as many Idaho wolves as possible for brood-stock…. I remember the first few howls in a couple backcountry areas that I used to backpack/hunt and then the years and years of going back to check with dreams of the days of old, just to find virtually game-less basins that were once truly epic places to hunt.

Notellum Creek
You were a truly magical place
1900-2004ish
R.I.P.

I had exact same experience. I still go back every once in a while. I am assuming they might never come back. It’s hard to explain to my son when I tell him about 5-6 bulls screaming in one little draw. Then move to the next drainage and find more bulls bugling. I think he thinks I’m full of crap at this point he didn’t come of age to bow hunt elk till after the damage was done. We both got 5 point bulls with our rifle this year to shut down the inevitable post that you just need to be a better hunter, it’s sad I wish we could experience those epic backcountry hunts together but that ship sailed. If they will leave Idaho alone and let us continue to expand wolf management I think those areas will be good again but never the same. My favorite spot I thought I wanted my ashes spread maybe but no way they would be covered in wolf crap now.

 

[Newtosavage]

Of those customers hunters pay the lions share . Hikers and bikers bring little to the table as funding concerned

That's well documented. Nobody is disputing that. Just don't make the mistake of thinking all hunters think exactly alike.

 

[Newtosavage]

Ok another honest response one more question than I’m done ha ha. What are the goals of those people/groups going full out on wolves and protecting them and other predators at any cost. They are systematically introducing and protecting predators almost exclusively. Seasons and methods are being removed for predator hunting and control. What is the objective or end game of these groups and individuals? Don’t say balance because many states are already 100 percent out of balance from excess predators. Specifically California, Oregon and Washington

I honestly believe that a lot of it is pure disney fantasy combined with ignorance. I mean, the hunter in every disney film was the bad guy. That's where a lot of these folks first formed their opinions. That combined with ignorance and echo chambers puts them where they are.

 

[Newtosavage]

I had exact same experience. I still go back every once in a while. I am assuming they might never come back. It’s hard to explain to my son when I tell him about 5-6 bulls screaming in one little draw. Then move to the next drainage and find more bulls bugling. I think he thinks I’m full of crap at this point he didn’t come of age to bow hunt elk till after the damage was done. We both got 5 point bulls with our rifle this year to shut down the inevitable post that you just need to be a better hunter, it’s sad I wish we could experience those epic backcountry hunts together but that ship sailed. If they will leave Idaho alone and let us continue to expand wolf management I think those areas will be good again but never the same. My favorite spot I thought I wanted my ashes spread maybe but no way they would be covered in wolf crap now.

You make me glad I didn't grow up with a dad constantly telling me how much better things used to be back in the day. Geez.

 

[Newtosavage]

So using your logic, all decisions should be ran through the people when it comes to all things fish and game. What a disaster that would be.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

You make assumptions.

I could just as easily say "using your logic" government agencies should be able to decide things without consulting the people who pay them. That doesn't sound very American to me.

 

[Trap]

You make me glad I didn't grow up with a dad constantly telling me how much better things used to be back in the day. Geez.

Lol my son is living in the good old days right now . He harvested a great Mule deer, nice lion(we have hounds), a mature 5 point bull elk, and a nice bear this year alone. We trapped coyotes and I have lost count of the ducks he has taken. We still do great and appreciate all that Idaho has to offer. It’s natural for a dad to show his boy all his honey holes. Unfortunately my best elk spots pre wolves are now almost void of elk. Yes I tell him how great they were once but we just move on and adapt. It’s disappointing to me to not be able to share those elk experiences with him in places I truly loved. Wolves are here I’m good with that I’m not ok with anti everything’s constantly trying to halt wolf management. I’m also not ok with people pretending overpopulation of wolves are a sign of a healthy ecosystem. I agree with your statement that donors to anti hunting groups have a Disney view of wildlife. The heads of these animal protection groups absolutely know what they are doing by protecting predators and introducing them. They are intent on breaking the nawm. The truth on wolves needs to be said unless you’re telling me I can’t believe my lying eyes? Idaho, Montana and Wyoming hunters have lived it unless they are fortunate to hunt areas with zero to limited numbers of wolves. There is areas in Idaho and Montana way over objective for elk coincidentally they have very few wolves. What’s that tell ya

 

[Trap]

I honestly believe that a lot of it is pure disney fantasy combined with ignorance. I mean, the hunter in every disney film was the bad guy. That's where a lot of these folks first formed their opinions. That combined with ignorance and echo chambers puts them where they are.

I actually agree with you 100 percent. The donors to these groups absolutely view it that way. The echo chamber is spot on and they are easily persuaded with emotion. What is the goal of the LEADERSHIP of these groups with promotion of all predators? What is their goal in protecting predators over all wildlife? Why is a wolf more important than an elk to them? Wildlife racism what’s their goal?

 

[Indian Summer]

There are lots of really good comments here. A few are questionable. Agree on facts? No! They are not opinions. They are documented information. Numbers don’t lie.

I have to ask Newtosavage… where do you live? Where do you hunt elk? Have you spent any time around wolves?

I agree that tax payers should be able to voice their opinions. But the Disney thing is real and city slickers and poodle hugging homemakers from back east… or wherever, have no business influencing what goes on with predators and ecosystems they know absolutely nothing about. We all agree that a balance is fine. I’m not for extermination of wolves or predators. But hunters and state agencies have been stripped of their ability to manage that balance. Literally had their hands tied by anti hunting groups funded by the Disney fans. Trap brings up so many good points I can’t keep up with them. We had bison from one end of this country to the other. Why don’t these wolf, excuse me… animal lovers care about the bison? What happened to the spotted owl? I’ll tell you what happened… the poor owl didn’t generate enough income and he wasn’t helping to eliminate hunting.

You can yak away all you want about all citizens having a right to decide how there money is spent but NOT WHEN ITS USED TO DERAIL SCIENCE AND THE FACTS. That’s when their damn money should be used to fund the professionals in each state to manage THEIR wildlife. That’s right wildlife is the property of the state. So why is some hippie in New York with a purple wolf on the spare tire cover on the back of his van having a say on wtf goes on in someone else’s back yard 2500 miles away?!? The dude has no clue that what he’s really supporting is a billion dollar anti hunt “narrative”, agenda, war…. Call it what you want.

Is it not ok if the agenda of hunters, who by the way are the world’s foremost conservationists AND who pay the bills, is to have healthy well balanced big game populations instead of nothing but stories to tell the young people they are attempting to pass on a heritage to?

If you aren’t supporting what myself Trap and others are then you are part of the problem.

 

[Super tag]

I’d like to see a domestic dog run down an elk in deep snow and take it down
The wolves have completely destroyed our local elk herds, to the point that the cow hunts were closed this past season for the first time ever. The elk don’t even winter anymore in the places they have used historically. What few are left winter right in town where the wolves don’t dare to venture just yet.
Domestic dogs - lol

 

[Newtosavage]

There is areas in Idaho and Montana way over objective for elk coincidentally they have very few wolves. What’s that tell ya

Tells me they need more wolves because the hunters aren't getting the job done. (jk, jk)

 

[Newtosavage]

I have to ask Newtosavage… where do you live? Where do you hunt elk? Have you spent any time around wolves?

If you aren’t supporting what myself Trap and others are then you are part of the problem.

This is a very personal, you're either with us or again' us mentality and it's not very productive for anything other than you getting your feelings out. Calm down.

Citizens always have a right to decide how their money is spent. What exactly are you proposing? Socialism? Communism? It's up to the wildlife agencies to EDUCATE the citizenry, using good science, but at the end of the day the citizens decide because it's their damn money and their resources.

In a perfect world, sure, the wildlife professionals would get to make the decisions. Just like in a perfect world law enforcement officers and teachers would be listened to and respected and everyone would get along.

You want to continue to paint me as the problem and I'm telling you bud, if you can't convince me, a fellow hunter, you have zero chance with joe and jill public.

Oh, as for hunters being the foremost conservationists, you are living a daydream if you believe that. This is what I mean by the narrative you have running your head. I know that's what the hunting rags have been telling us all for 50 years, but in practice there are some hunters who care, some who will gladly break the rules at every opportunity, and a whole lot who are indifferent. Just like every other group of people out there.

 

[Trap]

This is a very personal, you're either with us or again' us mentality and it's not very productive for anything other than you getting your feelings out. Calm down.

Citizens always have a right to decide how their money is spent. What exactly are you proposing? Socialism? Communism? It's up to the wildlife agencies to EDUCATE the citizenry, using good science, but at the end of the day the citizens decide because it's their damn money and their resources.

In a perfect world, sure, the wildlife professionals would get to make the decisions. Just like in a perfect world law enforcement officers and teachers would be listened to and respected and everyone would get along.

You want to continue to paint me as the problem and I'm telling you bud, if you can't convince me, a fellow hunter, you have zero chance with joe and jill public.

Oh, as for hunters being the foremost conservationists, you are living a daydream if you believe that. This is what I mean by the narrative you have running your head. I know that's what the hunting rags have been telling us all for 50 years, but in practice there are some hunters who care, some who will gladly break the rules at every opportunity, and a whole lot who are indifferent. Just like every other group of people out there.

Name one animal rights group that EVER put a dime towards habitat or wildlife conservation. I’m talking hsus, peta etc. there’s not enough time to list all the sportsman groups like rmef and ducks unlimited that have for decades. Rmef started in Montana mostly western resident elk hunters were able to bring back Kentucky and Pennsylvania elk ( 99.9 percent of rmef member will never hunt elk in those states) that pretty much blows the argument out of the water that hunters only want to protect what they can shoot. Humane society-peta etc raise billions name one dollar that’s went to habitat or wildlife conservation. It’s zero towards wildlife conservation it all goes to stop hunting in some form. Right now shutting down predator hunting where they can or bringing in new ones. Please find 1 dollar that animals rights groups have contributed to conservation or habitat. It doesn’t matter that only a percentage of hunters contribute to these groups it does matter they raise and put to use the majority if not all the dollars towards conservation.

 

[Newtosavage]

Name one animal rights group that EVER put a dime towards habitat or wildlife conservation. I’m talking hsus, peta etc. there’s not enough time to list all the sportsman groups like rmef and ducks unlimited that have for decades. Rmef started in Montana mostly western resident elk hunters were able to bring back Kentucky and Pennsylvania elk ( 99.9 percent of rmef member will never hunt elk in those states) that pretty much blows the argument out of the water that hunters only want to protect what they can shoot. Humane society-peta etc raise billions name one dollar that’s went to habitat or wildlife conservation. It’s zero towards wildlife conservation it all goes to stop hunting in some form. Right now shutting down predator hunting where they can or bringing in new ones. Please find 1 dollar that animals rights groups have contributed to conservation or habitat. It doesn’t matter that only a percentage of hunters contribute to these groups it does matter they raise and put to use the majority if not all the dollars towards conservation.

Trap, do you consider Defenders of Wildlife to be an anti-hunting organization?

 

[Trap]

Tells me they need more wolves because the hunters aren't getting the job done. (jk, jk)

Or maybe sell more tags and use that money to buy and protect habitat? Use those funds to purchase an easement to allow access through private to over objective elk herds? Oh crap I’m taking about the North American wildlife model again that things been working for 100 years we need to fix it I know you put just kidding but that’s really the heart of the matter- more predators and less tags to sell to make Money for conservation or just let the predators eat them? I know we won’t change the world by debating this on the internet but it’s important to publicly talk about it some hunters have little to no experience around over populated wolves. I’m not pissed at you but I obviously feel it’s important for others to hear what our experience has been. There is no doubt in my mind these animal rights groups want to shut down hunting by promoting predators. If you are not sure follow the money of these groups it all goes to lawsuits to stop hunting, propaganda to shut down hunts or to persuade voters to bring in and protect apex predators. It’s surprising to me that hunters from other parts of the country (mostly) really believe wolves are not super damaging to elk herds. But I shouldn’t be if I read all the propaganda and “ peer reviewed “ studies out there and had not witnessed things first hand I could possibly be swayed as well. I will give it to the antis they have run a heck of a misinformation campaign. So exact talking points 30 years later it’s unreal. Anyways thanks for having the discussion as I think hunters need to hear from other hunters the ugly side of wolves. I am not anti predator at all as it’s my favorite hunting and we regularly let lions and bears go in our hunting areas. It’s unmanaged and overpopulation of predators that I am opposed too . Reintroduction of wolves where they already exist in Colorado is ABSURD