First time layering - it went... ok

[srr5008]

Long time whitetail hunter here (PA if it matters). I've also done a couple first season rifle elk hunts in CO. Up until now, I've always worn a heavy parka, flannel shirt, and long johns for hunting. When whitetail hunting from a stand I add heavy bibs to that. Previously in CO we were able to drive to our base camp, so we had the ability to bring everything but the kitchen sink gear-wise.

Next year I'm doing a drop camp for first rifle. Given that we can't bring as much with us, I decided to try the layering systems I've been reading about. Today I was able to test out all my new clothing while doing some sneak hunting for whitetail in PA. Long story short, I was cold. It was 24 degrees, with 10-15 mph winds and a real feel of 14.

In the past it wasnt quite that cold on our elk hunts, but I'm aware it's a possibility. I was hoping to share my gear list and see where people could make suggestions for changes/improvements.

Up top I was wearing:
175 GSM merino wool (Minus 33)
Kings Camo performance fleece (comparable weight to the FL Klamath)
Pnuma Waypoint soft shell

For bottoms i wore:
175 GSM merino wool (Minus 33)
SKRE hardscrabble pants

As soon as I got outside I was chilly. Once I started sneak hunting I wasnt cold, but I wasn't warm either. The few times I was covering ground a bit faster I was warm enough.

When I stopped and stood for a few hours I added a Kings Down puffy (transition jacket) and a pair of zip on Stone Glacier Helio pants (fleece mid layer). That definitely helped, but again I wouldnt say that I was warm. But I wasn't uncomfortable either.

Should I add a heavier midlayer up top to help with getting cold? Swap any pieces of gear? My lower half wasnt too bad. I was cold enough that I was comfortable walking out with the puffy and fleece pants on. From what I've read most people dont wear their puffies while walking and the folks at SG assured me that I wouldnt want to walk with the fleece pants on.

Open to any suggestions!

 

[srr5008]

I should add that i started with midweight wool baselayers (245 gsm) and switched to the lightweight ones based on posts I've read here about heavier wool holding sweat/moisture.

 

[K_pem]

First thing I would consider is moisture management. Most the layers you bring aren't going to do you much good if you're slow moving and all wet underneath. I wear mesh merino base layers next to skin for that reason followed by something that will wick the little bit of moisture coming through away. I'd strongly consider them.

I would ditch your soft shell in lieu of an active insulation piece and a thin/light wind layer, if funds are tight you could opt to just put your rain shell over the top if you're moving slow enough or stationary but it won't breath as well or be as quiet if trying to use it while actively hunting (assuming you brought rain gear along), so I like to have a light wind layer to help trap in the heat/keep the wind at bay.

For bottoms I'm assuming you're saying you were wearing long merino bottoms AND the Helios; seems like that should have kept you pretty comfortable, unless of course you were mildly wet. Again, I would consider mesh merino base and you could still rock your Helio's over them.

If moisture was not a problem for you and you were still cold enough to justify hiking around in a puffy and all of your layers on bottom; then I would say it's cold enough for you to justify jumping up in base layer weight, provided that you're not making any of the above changes.

 

[Dave0317]

I think there is a few factors to consider regarding east vs west hunting styles, individual preferences, and a couple technique and mindset issues.

For a slow sneak/still hunt, you can definitely wear more insulation than most western hunters would wear while moving. Walking at a still-hunt pace on flat ground doesn’t generate much more warmth than sitting still. Especially if you are doing it right. In fact if I get warm while timber sneaking, that’s my cue to slow down more.

kind of like sleeping bags, some people can make a 15 degree bag work in 15 degree weather, and others will need a 0 bag to be comfortable below 30 degrees. Clothing can be equally variable depending on an individuals metabolism, body fat, or muscle mass.

Lastly, mindset and technique. I don’t expect to be “warm” on a windy 24 degree day, especially when you add the humidity in my area, vs the dryness out west. (Dry cold feels like 10 degrees warmer to me.) Being “not uncomfortable” is fine. If you want to be warm as a personal preference, nothing wrong with that either, just go ahead and wear the puffy and fleece pants.

There is also a mountain mindset of always wanting to start out pretty cold on your walk, so that you don’t overheat and sweat 15 minutes in. On a still-hunt/timber sneak, again that’s not really the same thing and not usually an issue.

 

[98XJRC]

Honestly your on the right track. Adding a wind layer would drastically improve your warmth though. I'm a PA hunter as well and it's felt like we've just been dealing with constant wind anymore. It doesn't matter how warm a piece of gear you are wearing is, if it doesn't have wind stopping capability you will loose heat and feel cool. I'm adding kuiu Katana's to my gear this year primarily for use as a wind layer over insulation, but also after being caught in the rain several times this season it became obvious I needed to add some to my system.

When moving (covering ground) while cold out (sub 30) I'll typically wear mid weight merino base layers and then a grid fleece or the new OV active midweight. I rarely put a heavier insulation layer on when doing so unless still hunting like you are talking about. Then like others have said if your starting to sweat it's your clue to slow down. There's a fine balance between moving slow enough to need the additional insulation vs moving to fast and needing to drop layers. The last thing you want to be doing is working up a sweat while moving as the moisture will make you cold once you stop.

 

[srr5008]

Thanks for the feedback so far!

I would ditch your soft shell in lieu of an active insulation piece and a thin/light wind layer, if funds are tight you could opt to just put your rain shell over the top if you're moving slow enough or stationary but it won't breath as well or be as quiet if trying to use it while actively hunting (assuming you brought rain gear along), so I like to have a light wind layer to help trap in the heat/keep the wind at bay.

I was wondering if I should go with something heavier than a soft shell (insulated). My jacket has a little bit of fleece in the body, but none in the sleeves. Just worried about being too warm when moving, I will have rain gear out west, but would prefer to wear them only if it's raining (those will make me sweat LOL).

I think there is a few factors to consider regarding east vs west hunting styles, individual preferences, and a couple technique and mindset issues.

For a slow sneak/still hunt, you can definitely wear more insulation than most western hunters would wear while moving. Walking at a still-hunt pace on flat ground doesn’t generate much more warmth than sitting still. Especially if you are doing it right. In fact if I get warm while timber sneaking, that’s my cue to slow down more.

I definitely think this is a factor. I hunt pretty hard (cover a lot of ground) hunting here in PA, but I don't move very fast. Looking back, I can remember sweating pretty bad when climbing hills in CO, but then I was back to moving pretty slow once I got to the elevation I wanted to hunt. As mentioned above, I am worried if I go with a heavier jacket I won't be able to dump heat when moving.

Honestly your on the right track. Adding a wind layer would drastically improve your warmth though. I'm a PA hunter as well and it's felt like we've just been dealing with constant wind anymore. It doesn't matter how warm a piece of gear you are wearing is, if it doesn't have wind stopping capability you will loose heat and feel cool. I'm adding kuiu Katana's to my gear this year primarily for use as a wind layer over insulation, but also after being caught in the rain several times this season it became obvious I needed to add some to my system.

My gear was pretty windproof. But I feel like the unlined sleeves in the jacket may have done me in. I don't think the wind cut through the jacket, but it certainly cooled down the temp of my exterior clothes, and I only had a lightweight base layer and thin fleece under that. On the fence between a heavier jacket, or an additional (heavier midlayer).

 

[K_pem]

I was wondering if I should go with something heavier than a soft shell (insulated). My jacket has a little bit of fleece in the body, but none in the sleeves. Just worried about being too warm when moving, I will have rain gear out west, but would prefer to wear them only if it's raining (those will make me sweat LOL).

Not necessarily heavier, but something more designed towards insulating but with the ability to still breath and move moisture. An example would be the Sitka Ambient line or the like. Then you can add in as needed a light weigh wind layer; I use a Sitka Mountain Evo jacket for this or a Jetstream vest depending on my layering, In REAL cold situations or on hunts where weight is not as much of a factor, I have a Sitka Jetstream (that is arguably the best windproof jacket on the market). Ideally you would be moving with just the active insulation on over your choice of base and mid layer, with the option to toss on your wind layer when you slow down or stop; followed by a puffy jacket when stationary.

I definitely think this is a factor. I hunt pretty hard (cover a lot of ground) hunting here in PA, but I don't move very fast. Looking back, I can remember sweating pretty bad when climbing hills in CO, but then I was back to moving pretty slow once I got to the elevation I wanted to hunt. As mentioned above, I am worried if I go with a heavier jacket I won't be able to dump heat when moving.

The ticket here, as I'm sure you're aware is to start cold and avoid getting too wet. The next step is to know how much moisture is an issue for you. I heat up and sweat like a pig when moving, even if only at a moderate effort level; therefore, for me I can usually get by with just my mesh merino base and a lightweight sun hoody over that (I use the Sitka Core LW 99% of the time). As I slow down or the effort level decreases, I can throw on my ACTIVE insulation piece and use my body heat combined with the added insulation to dry myself out. Windproof jackets/soft shells inherently will impede the amount of moisture that can escape as they naturally don't breathe as well. This is why it's pivotal to have a layering system that can breathe and move moisture as to not clam it all in. Once you are to a point that you are moving slow enough that the wind is a factor in zapping your heat away, you can obviously toss that wind layer on to reduce the degree of convective heat loss.

My gear was pretty windproof. But I feel like the unlined sleeves in the jacket may have done me in. I don't think the wind cut through the jacket, but it certainly cooled down the temp of my exterior clothes, and I only had a lightweight base layer and thin fleece under that. On the fence between a heavier jacket, or an additional (heavier midlayer).

Highly unlikely that the lack of fleece lining in the sleeves of your jacket is the culprit of you getting cold enough to feel the need to walk out with a puffy jacket on. If your core was cold naturally your body will shunt blood to your extremities as to preserve core body temp. Yes, your arms and legs being cold can be uncomfortable, but more likely if your core is warm/dry enough, you will barely notice the temp differential. I'd be willing to be that your jacket (while maybe not the most windproof) blocked the wind fairly well, but that you were A. Already damp and B. Not wearing enough insulation to match the temps/heat generation given how fast/slow you're moving and the effort involved. Again, this is why you want to build a layering SYSTEM; you add/subtract layers as demand/conditions dictate.


--If I were in your shoes, I think the best bang for your buck is going to be an active insulation layer (like a Sitka Ambient or similar) to wear while you're still actively moving/still hunting but not working so hard that you're sweating a bunch. Then when you really slow down you can toss on your soft shell, and if you eventually stop to glass or whatever then you have a puffy to toss on and trap all that heat in. As for your bottom half; you may have to play with what base layer combo works best for you (take a look at the mesh) and maybe consider some different pants that are a little more substantial.

 

[Stache Attack]

My west whitetail system this year.

T shirt, 145 merino/peleton97(KUIU), peleton 240 or strong fleece 275, Kenia vest, and then when I get to glassing spot puffy.

Bottoms is Sitka core heavy heavy weight, stone glacier DH lite pants or timberlines, darn tough heavy weight work socks. Kenetrek ME 0 or 400s.

Temps ranged over 8 days from -14 to 35.
A few evenings we ran up to another drainage and chased elk.

It’s really not a whitetail kit. It’s the same clothes I took to camp September 6th- October 15th, rifle season, and shoulder season into February. Same things I’ll wear next year. Early I throw a gila sun shirt in and OV new pants. Just remove or add layers depending on high or lows it all fits in one husky clear lid box I think 26”wide x 16x12

 

[Stache Attack]

I would like to try some new pieces like Sitka active stuff maybe other outdoor vitals stuff but no real point to spend more money on clothes

 

[K_pem]

My west whitetail system this year.

T shirt, 145 merino/peleton97(KUIU), peleton 240 or strong fleece 275, Kenia vest, and then when I get to glassing spot puffy.

Bottoms is Sitka core heavy heavy weight, stone glacier DH lite pants or timberlines, darn tough heavy weight work socks. Kenetrek ME 0 or 400s.

Temps ranged over 8 days from -14 to 35.
A few evenings we ran up to another drainage and chased elk.

It’s really not a whitetail kit. It’s the same clothes I took to camp September 6th- October 15th, rifle season, and shoulder season into February. Same things I’ll wear next year. Early I throw a gila sun shirt in and OV new pants. Just remove or add layers depending on high or lows it all fits in one husky clear lid box I think 26”wide x 16x12

Man, thats not a lot of clothes to be sitting and glassing in -14 degree temps at all. I thought I ran pretty warm but I would be freezing my dick off in that.

 

[CMP70306]

So I was hunting PA same as you for the rifle opener though my area was a touch warmer with feels like temps in the low 20’s and this was what I wore.

Walking Layers
Firstlite Furnace base layer top and bottom
Firstlite Source jacket
Duluth Briar pants
Firstlite Trigger mitts
Firstlite Charge Vest
Firstlite Heavy Wool socks (don’t remember which)
Irish Elk Tracker Boots with 600gram insulation

Sitting Layers
Firstlite Solitude jacket and bibs
Firstlite Tunda Balaclava

I would carry the solitude set on my backpack and then when I got to stand put it on, any elevation change or walking faster than a slow walk would would make me sweat my balls off in that set which is why I carry it. Makes things a bit more tedious on stand but it beats sitting in the stand freezing like I did in 2021 with nowhere near enough clothing on.

I also had 18 hour hand warmers in my pockets, with the exposed pointer finger and thumb on the gloves they would get cold after a while and the hand warmers would mitigate that.

If I was driving I would ditch the entire top half and go with wicking base layer, Orvis Field Coat and my Chief Upland vest. We get a lot of briars and my Firstlite stuff gets tore up walking near them so busting through them is a recipe for having to spend a boatload of money replacing stuff.

 

[summs]

I was out in PA and NJ the last 2 weeks, so terrain and temp probably similar.

Top-
kuiu peleton 118 T shirt
ll bean medium weight long sleeve merino
Duluth trading AKHG blackburn (Hoodie pullover with built in neck gaiter/facemask)
Sitka traverse jacket
32 Degrees amazon basic puffy

Bottom-
Kuiu 240gm zip off merino
Cabelas northern flight wader pants
Wrangler ATK fleece lined


If needed extra
I have the original Sitka traverse jacket (no where near as insulated as one currently sold) or First lite catalyst jacket if its windy
Bottoms - pull over bibs
I have a set of pure wool bibs, but am looking for a lighter option like the First lite Core bibs

I was out Monday on the mountain and it was a high of 20-25. Was comfortable and clothes were compact. Tuesday started out at 1*F. That's just cold in my book.

You never want to be 'warm' - the old hiking saying be bold start cold
The top seems fine, maybe an bigger out layer jacket to wrap it all up and for bottom needs something below your SKRE pants and then you would be set.

 

[srr5008]

Highly unlikely that the lack of fleece lining in the sleeves of your jacket is the culprit of you getting cold enough to feel the need to walk out with a puffy jacket on. If your core was cold naturally your body will shunt blood to your extremities as to preserve core body temp. Yes, your arms and legs being cold can be uncomfortable, but more likely if your core is warm/dry enough, you will barely notice the temp differential. I'd be willing to be that your jacket (while maybe not the most windproof) blocked the wind fairly well, but that you were A. Already damp and B. Not wearing enough insulation to match the temps/heat generation given how fast/slow you're moving and the effort involved. Again, this is why you want to build a layering SYSTEM; you add/subtract layers as demand/conditions dictate.


--If I were in your shoes, I think the best bang for your buck is going to be an active insulation layer (like a Sitka Ambient or similar) to wear while you're still actively moving/still hunting but not working so hard that you're sweating a bunch. Then when you really slow down you can toss on your soft shell, and if you eventually stop to glass or whatever then you have a puffy to toss on and trap all that heat in. As for your bottom half; you may have to play with what base layer combo works best for you (take a look at the mesh) and maybe consider some different pants that are a little more substantial.

THANK YOU for the in-depth feedback. I do know that I was not wet (was keeping track of that, because that was the whole point of layering for me). I suspect that my insulation didn't match the conditions (point B in your response). Definitely going to look for another layer that will fill the gap in my setup.