Field shooting. Its hard.

[Jordan Smith]

I do like shooting my 7SAUM in the wind, but I’m not “better” with it than I am my 22 Creed on hit rates.

I'll also just point out that you see the biggest difference in cold-bore hit rates where the wind is still largely unknown. Once you've DOPE'd the wind, the wind-cutting advantage of the bigger bullets becomes less relevant.

 

[stan_wa]

7PRC shooting a 180 ELDM at 2950 fps has a wind # of 12 mph out to 700 m

7 Prc has. 9mph wind with at 3000 not 12 below wind 1 is 9 wind 2 is 10

It’s impractical to get above a wind number of 10

 

[Jordan Smith]

7 Prc has. 8mph wind with at 3000 not 19

It depends on atmospheric conditions and other variables. The important point is the relative wind numbers between chamberings/bullets in the same conditions, not the absolute numbers I mentioned.

 

[Formidilosus]

I can say objectively this year with 47 students, wind buckling ability of someone’s bullet/cartridge has had no correlation to first round hit rates at the pretest scenarios in the S2H classes with targets ranging from less than 50 yards, to 1,106 yards in varied terrain.

Still writing it all out from this year, but lower recoil looks to show a slight advantage in hit rates and in follow-up shots.

 

[Jordan Smith]

I can say objectively this year with 47 students, wind buckling ability of someone’s bullet/cartridge has had no correlation to first round hit rates at the pretest scenarios in the S2H classes with targets ranging from less than 50 yards, to 1,106 yards in varied terrain.

Still writing it all out from this year, but lower recoil looks to show a slight advantage in hit rates and in follow-up shots.

I wonder if the skill level of the shooters before taking the course is low enough that the wind resistance of the various loads gets lost in the noise.

We definitely see an increase in first-round hits with more aerodynamic bullets in the matches I shoot. Going from a .223 and 75 ELDM to a 6CM and 112 MB makes a big difference in my personal hit rates, especially in switchy winds.

 

[Formidilosus]

I wonder if the skill level of the shooters before taking the course is low enough that the wind resistance of the various loads gets lost in the noise.

Absolutely.

Though the average shooter that has attended is far above the average hunter in skill and equipment, and there have been a few relatively serious competitors attend- they have faired no better than anyone else on day one. The flip side, is after 5 days of training, there really isn’t a large difference in post test either.
Overall 233’s are slightly above everything else in pre test; and fast 22’s and 6mm’s seem to be slightly, but noticeably better in post test.

We miss due to the largest source of error, and so far in the classes rarely is that wind.

We definitely see an increase in first-round hits with more aerodynamic bullets in the matches I shoot. Going from a .223 and 75 ELDM to a 6CM and 112 MB makes a big difference in my personal hit rates, especially in switchy winds.

Oh no doubt. If the shooters actual base line skill in hitting, and speed is solid- better performance is better… until recoil causes hits to drop again.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

My point is the inverse. Let's say that a shooter makes the correct average FV wind call with a 6CM/108 and 7PRC/180 at 600 m. The shooter can mis-call the wind shifts on any given shot up to +/- 3.7 mph before the 108 starts getting pushed off the edges of a 17.7" target. The 180 stays on target until the wind call error increases to +/- 5.4 mph. That's a 46% gain in error margin.

The point I was attempting to make, likely quite poorly typing it out on the internet, is that all things being equal, and with two robots shooting both guns, the 180 ELDM obviously has the higher probability for hits; however, nearly all shooters aren’t good enough to take advantage of that increase in probability.

The lower recoiling cartridges continue to show, with shooters ranging from beginner to casual to “pro”, the highest level of actual hits when shooting in true hunting conditions (timed shots in the mountains).

At least in what I’ve personally seen and especially when shooting 8-10 hour days. The number of guys and gals that show up with anything “above” a 9lb 6.5CM level of recoil and continue to use that gun past say 10-11am are zero. Once they shoot the 223, 22 Creed, 243, 6 Creed etc. they stay on them all day.

Nobody is here to “shit” on heavier higher BC bullets. They are a ton of fun too and have their place.

 

[Jordan Smith]

The point I was attempting to make, likely quite poorly typing it out on the internet, is that all things being equal, and with two robots shooting both guns, the 180 ELDM obviously has the higher probability for hits; however, nearly all shooters aren’t good enough to take advantage of that increase in probability.

The lower recoiling cartridges continue to show, with shooters ranging from beginner to casual to “pro”, the highest level of actual hits when shooting in true hunting conditions (timed shots in the mountains).

At least in what I’ve personally seen and especially when shooting 8-10 hour days. The number of guys and gals that show up with anything “above” a 9lb 6.5CM level of recoil and continue to use that gun past say 10-11am are zero. Once they shoot the 223, 22 Creed, 243, 6 Creed etc. they stay on them all day.

Nobody is here to “shit” on heavier higher BC bullets. They are a ton of fun too and have their place.

The funny thing is, I’m a big proponent of less recoil = more fun more practice = more hits at distance in the field. The largest rifle I currently own is a 7Mag/7WSM, and it get a lot less play time than my host of smaller rifles.

So, I’m with you. Just pointing out that better performance is better performance, until recoil undermines that advantage.

 

[Jordan Smith]

7 Prc has. 9mph wind with at 3000 not 12 below wind 1 is 9 wind 2 is 10

It’s impractical to get above a wind number of 10

Your rifle and load will have a different wind number at sea level in the winter in Alaska, than at 6000 ASL in Colorado in the summer.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

The difference between those two 22 CM loads seems a little suspect to me. I wouldn't expect a 5 fps gain at the muzzle to result in a 13-15% reduction in wind drift.

My bad on the copy and paste on the 22 CM on the bullet description. The Hornady load should have been 80 gr and the CC was 88 gr.

 

[Strider]

Thanks for writing this up. Whereabouts are you guys holding this shoot?

NW Montana.

 

[stan_wa]

Your rifle and load will have a different wind number at sea level in the winter in Alaska, than at 6000 ASL in Colorado in the summer.

Yeah I am aware of that I was not realizing you were using a da of 12000 feet to get the 12 mph on the 7 prc

I had expected a more average da of 3000. So likely your wind numbers are correct for your very high da.

I had looked at lots of wind number at a 3k da a knew there was no practical way to get to 12 mph

Good clarification!

 

[wind gypsy]

Yeah I am aware of that I was not realizing you were using a da of 12000 feet to get the 12 mph on the 7 prc

I had expected a more average da of 3000. So likely your wind numbers are correct for your very high da.

I had looked at lots of wind number at a 3k da a knew there was no practical way to get to 12 mph

Good clarification!

28 nosler, 190 ATIP, N570.

 

[Jordan Smith]

Yeah I am aware of that I was not realizing you were using a da of 12000 feet to get the 12 mph on the 7 prc

I had expected a more average da of 3000. So likely your wind numbers are correct for your very high da.

I had looked at lots of wind number at a 3k da a knew there was no practical way to get to 12 mph

Good clarification!

I was highlighting the relative wind numbers, not the absolute values (which are conditions-dependent).

 

[stan_wa]

28 nosler, 190 ATIP, N570.

why do you think i shoot a 26" 28 nosler with a 195 EOL at 3020fps with n570 ahah.
I was like how do i get the most wind number with a tolerable recoil and that's what i landed on.

Then i had to buy a 6 creed thanks you the rockslide hype.

how ever i would say 10 mph is still about as good as it gets reasonably. with 3k da even that set up is still just a 10mph rating. Back to Jordans point the environmental condition really matter. could easily swing to 12 mph with a higher DA

 

[Bluumoon]

Will preface by saying I love this practice. It is absolutely awesome.

Time for a small nitpick. How accurate is your statement about the 22CM/6CM having "similar or even better wind #s that a 7 PRC"? I ask because...

COTS, 10 mph wind
View attachment 903863

No argument about the significant recoil advantage of the 22 CM and 6 CM. But the wind drift numbers are something else.

Now the 22 CM with the CC load is pretty intriguing. Don't want to derail the thread.

Here are my personal ”pet” load ballistics at 600 yards for personal rifles 7PRC (10mph load) , 6CM (8mph gun), 22CM (6mph gun) . We can argue ballistic semantics and that I’m not using optimized bullet/ load for one vs other, but without question I shoot better and faster and have everything I need out past where I should be shooting w the small cartridges vs the 7PRC.

 

[Formidilosus]

Here are my personal ”pet” load ballistics at 600 yards for personal rifles 7PRC (10mph load) , 6CM (8mph gun), 22CM (6mph gun) . We can argue ballistic semantics and that I’m not using optimized bullet/ load for one vs other, but without question I shoot better and faster and have everything I need out past where I should be shooting w the small cartridges vs the 7PRC.

Still not tired huh…..

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I shoot in the mountains more days than I don't, and I still suck. This is one of my favorite drills to start the morning after some rucking or target setting.

4-3-2-1 Challenge. Start with backpack on, bino harness on, and rifle in hand or stowed how you pack with it.

4 is for 400ish yards
3 is for 3 Shot Attempts
2 is for 2 MOA Target
1 is for 1 Minute Timer

Give it a try in mountainous terrain and see if you have enough time in the one minute to...

1. Range Animal (Whatever ranging and ballistics method you use)
2. Make Wind Call
3. Build Shot Position
4. Dial or hold for elevation
5. Dial of hold for wind
6. Get 3 shots on target
7. Make Gun Safe, RTZ, etc.

 

[eoperator]

Those with the large magnums did better than those with lighter recoiling cartridges. I found this interesting becouse my personal hit rate went up as I went down in recoil.

I was out shooting gophers on an alfalfa field 4 evenings last week. With 6dasher 80g eldvt & 25prc(6.5) 131g clipped into tripod and revic blr10. The little buggers stand up giving a 10-20 second window to range and get a 120-450yrd shot off, follow up shots are not an option.

None of this is scientific or documented but the 2 gusty evenings hit rates with the 25prc were high compared to the 6dasher. On a highly populated knoll at about 270yrds the gusty winds made it nearly impossible to hit with the 6d while the 25prc managed to hit ~1in3. The prc seemed to carry enough "knock down" power also

On the last evening with calm conditions the 6dasher seemed to have a small advantage, especially with spotting impacts and suppressor mirage.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I was out shooting gophers on an alfalfa field 4 evenings last week. With 6dasher 80g eldvt & 25prc(6.5) 131g clipped into tripod and revic blr10. The little buggers stand up giving a 10-20 second window to range and get a 120-450yrd shot off, follow up shots are not an option.

None of this is scientific or documented but the 2 gusty evenings hit rates with the 25prc were high compared to the 6dasher. On a highly populated knoll at about 270yrds the gusty winds made it nearly impossible to hit with the 6d while the 25prc managed to hit ~1in3. The prc seemed to carry enough "knock down" power also

On the last evening with calm conditions the 6dasher seemed to have a small advantage, especially with spotting impacts and suppressor mirage.

“Follow up shots not being an option” and varmint hunt in the same sentence has my mind completely flipped haha.

There’s a reason 20 practical, 204 Ruger, 22-250, 223 243 and wild cat variants of all those are king in the varmint world.