Field shooting. Its hard.

Awesome dude! Do you have anymore pics from the shoot? The country looks beautiful!

I shot my small gun with virtually zero recoil, along side my big gun with some good recoil, and felt the first round hits were easier with the big gun just because the wind holds were less and easier to account for. I think it was just a mental thing under pressure for me. You still have to make a hold, but the center of the reticle is normally much closer, or still on the plate for the most part.
Only a couple. Maybe @BearGuy took some?
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The hit rate thing has been confusing to me. Personally I think that prone with a little bit of time. Large magnums may give you a little help when you are not able to call wind. But in rushed shots or positions out of prone when you are able to make even a slight wind call its a wash on first round hits. The little guys obviously have the benefit of spotting hits in a wider array of positions. Just my opinion from a relatively small sample size.
 
@Strider re magnum hit rates vs smaller cartridges. Lots to unpack and not known, but given equal wind #s (at what wind mph the bullet shifts 0.1 mil per 100 yards) the smaller cartridge should have higher hit rate.

20-30 round zeros and not kicking out flyers is a start. Even being 0.1 click off will lead to misses at range pretty quick.
 
@Strider re magnum hit rates vs smaller cartridges. Lots to unpack and not known, but given equal wind #s (at what wind mph the bullet shifts 0.1 mil per 100 yards) the smaller cartridge should have higher hit rate.

20-30 round zeros and not kicking out flyers is a start. Even being 0.1 click off will lead to misses at range pretty quick.
It gets a bit more complicated when they don't have equal wind #s. The larger cartridge usually has a higher wind #, but the smaller cartridge is more shootable. For relatively easy wind corrections, the more shootable cartridge wins on average, but when wind gets crazy the larger cartridges with its higher wind # can start to gain the advantage.
 
@Bluumoon It makes sense and i agree. Have you seen that in the shoots you host?


There is something called the WEZ calculator that others smarter than me can use to demonstrate the theory, it has been discussed numerous times (search WEZ or WEZ hit rates).

I’ve personally seen using too small of a round count zeros giving false zeros. I’ve had rifles shift that I thought were set up correctly. A number of other little things. It’s amazing how many things I’ve found to screw up in a short period of time.
 
@Bluumoon It makes sense and i agree. Have you seen that in the shoots you host?
22CMs with 88 ELDMs and 6CMs with 108 ELDMs are far away the highest hit rate guns across dozens and dozens of shooters. This is shooting from field positions in the mountains with wind.

At least in what I’ve personally seen. And there is a caveat to this…

Improperly reading and “calling” wind leads to misses no matter the weight or BC of a bullet. Those hit rates mentioned above are with myself or another experienced wind caller giving folks corrections.

The hit rates go down when those same folks try to call their own wind, no matter the bullet or rifle chambering.
 
@Bluumoon It makes sense and i agree. Have you seen that in the shoots you host?
The course I set up focuses on different skills, primarily quickly improvising field positions. You can hit more targets and still lose based on speed. Based on feedback this year we'll prob tweak how we run the course, maybe penalize 1st round misses somehow (time?) and add in time cutoffs. Also, we aren't shooting across big canyons and a majority of the course is sub 400 yards.

The first year we shot with a group we had one large .284 cartridge, a 6.5 CM and a spattering of smaller cartridges. This year the largest cartridge used was a 6CM. As @mxgsfmdpx pointed out the 22CM and 6CM have very similar or even better wind #s than a 7PRC and WAY less recoil ---> ability to spot your own shots and send follow up shots very quickly.
 
A few weeks back @BearGuy , myself and 9 buddies took to the hills for our now annual field shooting "competition". I started this shoot last year after wanting to see for myself what hit rates are under slight stress in the mountains. It's not pretty.

A quick summary
The shoot was 12 targets 100yds - 810yds. 3 points for a first round impact 1pt for a second. Each shot was +/- 2moa. Each shot started with full kit on. Each shot was timed with varying times per shot. All ranging, dialing, etc had to be done on the timer. As if you are hunting. Once you locate the animal and decide to shoot it. The time and pressure start.
I tried to vary each shot in distance, angle, and shooting position.
Between the 11 guys we had the full gamut of hunters. Full time guides, killers, new hunters, and experienced casual hunters.

View attachment 902946
@BearGuy shooting a 12" plate at 620yds with a 10 - 15mph gusty wind. The position was quite awkward with feet higher than your head. No one hit this target.

Conclusion
The combined first round hit rate as a whole was 28%. Most shots could be taken prone. I tried to make it so this wouldn't happen but I failed. All but 3 could be shot from prone. The guy who won finished with 17pts. Myself and a buddy finished tied 2nd with 14pts. The first half had light wind that could be mostly accounted for by holding edge of plate. The second half of the targets were in or across a main valley and had a strong 10-15mph wind that would gust over 20mph or more. Then switched 180° the last target. Overall wind was very challenging.

My take aways
-
calling wind is a learned art form. It separates the men from the boys.
- spotting impacts in your scope is a necessity. Where I failed was seeing your miss isn't much help in something like this unless you have practiced quickly and accurately making a correction and applying it. I would see the miss and fumble my way to a wrong correction.
- Mil scopes are the way.
- suppressors are the way.
- my shooting was abysmal. I choked on any shot that wasn't prone. I let the timer get in my head. Many stages I finished with 30+ seconds to spare. Being fast does no good if you miss.
- this is my big one. I'm sorry if it's long winded. Just becouse you have a light recoiling, rokstocked, suppressed rifle with a FFP Mil mil scope. Means very little if you can't keep your self together and brake good shots under pressure. Ones practice must be very very intentional. Shooting prone on a known range, even under a timer, does not and will not help on the mountain past a certain point. If you want to increase proficiency on a mountain than you need to shoot in the mountains, get training, or be very diligent and proactive in your personal time to shoot sitting, kneeling, standing, and whatever on a timer. Be realalistic and thoughtful with your range time and figure out how to improve your precision and efficiency of movement and time.
- focused practice is needed

Sorry this is long. I find this stuff fascinating. Hope you get something from it.
Thanks for writing this up. Whereabouts are you guys holding this shoot?
 
22CMs with 88 ELDMs and 6CMs with 108 ELDMs are far away the highest hit rate guns across dozens and dozens of shooters. This is shooting from field positions in the mountains with wind.

At least in what I’ve personally seen. And there is a caveat to this…

Improperly reading and “calling” wind leads to misses no matter the weight or BC of a bullet. Those hit rates mentioned above are with myself or another experienced wind caller giving folks corrections.

The hit rates go down when those same folks try to call their own wind, no matter the bullet or rifle chambering.
The caveat being that high-BC bullets are less affected by improper wind calls, so they give a bit larger margin of error.
 
Sounds like a great time. Wind is the great equalizer and big magnums shooting high bc bullets at high speed do wonders in the wind. Long live 300 Norma’s and 245 Berger hybrids. 😝
 
The course I set up focuses on different skills, primarily quickly improvising field positions. You can hit more targets and still lose based on speed. Based on feedback this year we'll prob tweak how we run the course, maybe penalize 1st round misses somehow (time?) and add in time cutoffs. Also, we aren't shooting across big canyons and a majority of the course is sub 400 yards.

The first year we shot with a group we had one large .284 cartridge, a 6.5 CM and a spattering of smaller cartridges. This year the largest cartridge used was a 6CM. As @mxgsfmdpx pointed out the 22CM and 6CM have very similar or even better wind #s than a 7PRC and WAY less recoil ---> ability to spot your own shots and send follow up shots very quickly.
Will preface by saying I love this practice. It is absolutely awesome.

Time for a small nitpick. How accurate is your statement about the 22CM/6CM having "similar or even better wind #s that a 7 PRC"? I ask because...

COTS, 10 mph wind
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No argument about the significant recoil advantage of the 22 CM and 6 CM. But the wind drift numbers are something else.

Now the 22 CM with the CC load is pretty intriguing. Don't want to derail the thread.
 
The caveat being that high-BC bullets are less affected by improper wind calls, so they give a bit larger margin of error.
Sure. But do you think someone is holding the difference with a 10 MPH full value wind, between let’s say an 88 ELDM at 500 yards with 0.67 mils of wind, versus a 147 ELDM at 0.62 mils (this is at mid DA using real world velocities from 20” barrels in 22CM and 6.5CM). Even if it was a full 0.1 MIL value, world class shooters aren’t holding that difference.

You need to move all the way up to a 180 ELDM at 7PRC velocities to get not even quite 0.2 MILs less drift than an 88 ELDM at 500 yards. As an example.

Most shooters “holding 0.2 MILs” are actually holding anywhere from 0.1-0.4 MILs anyway from field positions.

Shooting a heavy gun from a bench or perfect prone position and dialing for wind? Sure hit rates willl increase

I do like shooting my 7SAUM in the wind, but I’m not “better” with it than I am my 22 Creed on hit rates.
 
Will preface by saying I love this practice. It is absolutely awesome.

Time for a small nitpick. How accurate is your statement about the 22CM/6CM having "similar or even better wind #s that a 7 PRC"? I ask because...

COTS, 10 mph wind
View attachment 903863

No argument about the significant recoil advantage of the 22 CM and 6 CM. But the wind drift numbers are something else.

Now the 22 CM with the CC load is pretty intriguing. Don't want to derail the thread.
The difference between those two 22 CM loads seems a little suspect to me. I wouldn't expect a 5 fps gain at the muzzle to result in a 13-15% reduction in wind drift.
 
Sure. But do you think someone is holding the difference with a 10 MPH full value wind, between let’s say an 88 ELDM at 500 yards with 0.67 mils of wind, versus a 147 ELDM at 0.62 mils (this is at mid DA using real world velocities from 20” barrels in 22CM and 6.5CM). Even if it was a full 0.1 MIL value, world class shooters aren’t holding that difference.

You need to move all the way up to a 180 ELDM at 7PRC velocities to get not even quite 0.2 MILs less drift than an 88 ELDM at 500 yards. As an example.

Most shooters “holding 0.2 MILs” are actually holding anywhere from 0.1-0.4 MILs anyway from field positions.

Shooting a heavy gun from a bench or perfect prone position and dialing for wind? Sure hit rates willl increase

I do like shooting my 7SAUM in the wind, but I’m not “better” with it than I am my 22 Creed on hit rates.
My point is the inverse. Let's say that a shooter makes the correct average FV wind call with a 6CM/108 and 7PRC/180 at 600 m. The shooter can mis-call the wind shifts on any given shot up to +/- 3.7 mph before the 108 starts getting pushed off the edges of a 17.7" target. The 180 stays on target until the wind call error increases to +/- 5.4 mph. That's a 46% gain in error margin.

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