Ethical question - stickbow

[winter]

JCT,

These strangers on the 3d course have a quiver full of broadheads attached to their bow so I assume they are hunters. Like elkhunter71 said, "I agree 90% of the guys shooting have no business going to the woods to hunt anything". The guys here who are commenting all have told a lot of stories of their own experiences. Seems like a stand up group. My opinion is based on my experiences. Watching a bunch of trad archers in two different states, I'd say the vast majority could take a shooting lesson. The masters of the barebow dvd should come standard with every bow purchase

 

[mauidiver]

Without reading the other comments yet which I will do in a bit, I would like to put in my 2cents!! I'm very green with arrow slinging and moved to Austin Tx 5 yrs ago from Maui. Only 3 yrs ago have I got into bow hunting. And actually was a little over a year before I even attempted to harvest an animal with my bow. Initially I wanted to start off trad shooting. We have a bow shop in Georgetown named Double G and I nervously walked in when I first moved here not really feeling I fit in at all. Maui boy moved to Hicksville!! Joking!! But still, I walked in and I saw these guys who I obviously never seen before, and never seen a bow shooter let alone traditional bow shooting. This guy had a funny looking grin on his face and was pissing and moaning up and down the lanes retrieving his arrows. It was pretty funny. But as I looked around the shop and the walls with all these pictures of animals, this same ol funny looking grin guy who they call Bisch was plastered all over the wall. He really proud of that grin. But jokes aside, this guy was unbelievable at shooting. He was shooting maybe 15-20 yards, but off by a couple inches and would bitch and moan!! He was also getting best from a couple other guys in the shop who were all top notch trad shooters. Years go by and I frequent the place and he's always there. Grin and all. But we talked a lot and I told him some fun spear fishing stories and I heard a lot of his. He says he keeps all his shots strictly trad, and got rid of his wheel bow, and never really shoots farther then 10-12 yards. Now, I know that he's probably taken farther shots, but I'm not there to hear those. He's harvested the biggest animals I've ever seen in Africa and all with his stick bow. Now, my reason for talking about Mr grin, is you sound like you have paid your dues and then some, and I would think you should enjoy the harvest trad without a doubt. Heck, there are guys that take ridiculous shot with rifles for heavens sake. And that's on them!! To me, we owe it to the animals a quick kill. If you land a crappy shot, stuff happens. Heck!! It just takes a fidget to miss, but again, you have paid your dues. This is what all your hard work practicing should pay off. And taking an animal with trad is by far, about your skills at getting close to your animal as poss. That is a true hunter to me. But whT do I know!! I sling 56 inch 3/4 thick steel shafts through fish!! Yes, big fish, but that's because I've been doing it over 20 yrs. I would love to see you take one with the stick, and I'll post your pic next to Mr grin here in double G. Haha! Good luck sir!

 

[Kevin Dill]

More food for thought:

I suspect the relative accuracy of a recurve or longbow hunter (assuming barebow here) hasn't changed much in the past 60+ years. The dedicated guys shoot pretty well generally, and the occasional hunters might shoot worse. Most of the guys who stay with it for ten or more years will generally be successful and satisfied. My point here is that recurve and longbow accuracy is pretty much a function of the shooter and not his equipment. Back in the 1960s nobody talked about "that guy has no business hunting with a stickbow" and the bows of the day were what guys used. There was nothing else to compare them with.

Enter the compound bow. After 40 years of evolution, compounds are decidedly high-tech and very complex hunting weapons as a whole. When guys are using micrometer sights, laser rangefinders and weighing things down to exact grains...you know it's a game of precision. I can strip my recurve of every accessory and put it back together for hunting in a matter of 15-30 minutes. If you stripped everything off a modern compound, the user would spend plenty of time reassembling, shooting, 'tuning' and adjusting...probably several hours to regain what was lost. Compounds are about precision when compared to a conventional bow. And now for my point...

It's easy to be or easy to see a good compound shooter, and then compare them to a longbow guy. His game isn't about precision in all likelihood. His objectives and techniques are totally different, but people often don't see that. They simply see two guys shooting arrows and the compound guy is laying groups at 40+ yards that the longbow guy doesn't get at 20 yards. Based only on repeatable accuracy, the evaluation is made that the longbow guy is a lousy shot and has no business being afield with that bow. Never mind that this couldn't have happened in 1968: the compound has since altered people's thinking about acceptable accuracy and for some, anything less just isn't acceptable. Why is that? It didn't cause problems in 1960-something...so why is it suddenly a problem today? Accuracy is certainly a good thing, but it's not the only thing. Looking at two groups of arrows shot by two different hunters with two different strategies is not an effective way to judge hunting accuracy or outcomes. The guy who can drill a 3D deer at 60 yards is fun to watch, but he might be the most incapable 'bowhunter' going afield and not even in the same league as a long-time hardcore hunter who knows how to beat his quarry, keep his cool and deliver the money shot when real hearts are beating at each end.

 

[Kebler]

what's the best practice for hunting? Stumping and 3 d targets like the animal u are hunting.

i suck at shooting at a bag target with a bunch of dots on it.

but give me 1 shot and move on to the next I do real well

 

[Kevin Dill]

I shoot at a conventional target only to work on and improve my form. I never shoot at it for accuracy...and I mean never. When I want to practice for hunting, one of my favorite things is tennis balls. I keep a couple bright tennis balls which I toss out in my back yard. I shoot one arrow only at each ball...collect the arrow and toss the ball. I use blunts or Judo heads for this, and they are as accurate as broadheads for me.

The one arrow-and-done practice method is spot on for the stickbow user. I liken it to the old flintlock rifle: one shot and make it count. No do-overs. First arrow accuracy is all that matters to a hunter anyway.

 

[Kebler]

Any adive on picking spots on the animal, my bad shits have come from my not picking a spot on the animal

 

[PJG]

I have found two vastly different philosophies when it comes to shooting a trad bow. Philosophy 1) is the shooter that has what I would call the snap shot. Philosophy 2) would be the shooter that is more oly type based. I am not going to go into which one that I think is more accurate, rather I am going to explain my feelings on philosophy 2, and what I have learned so far. I am not going to say I can outshoot anyone, rather what I have done to improve my shot year after year.

When I originally started shooting a stickbow I had a basic understanding of form, but had no understanding of a shot sequence or an aiming method. I was really under the impression that shooting a stickbow was as easy as looking at a spot, drawing the bow back, releasing the arrow, and bam bingo dead animal. I shot this way and actually improved somewhat for about a year. However, I was also frustrated at the one year mark, I was shooting with a couple of guys that where a lot better than me and I was not seeing enough improvement to keep up with these guys.

I decided at that point and time to take the Rod Jenkins clinic in Cody, WY. The funny thing about Rod’s clinic is you really don’t shoot many arrows at it and nothing at a distance greater than a blank bale. Rod really focuses on developing a shot sequence. Something that is easily repeatable and you are able to learn on how to work on one part of your shot sequence.
After taking Rod’s clinic I developed a bad case of target panic, I think a lot of people develop this after taking Rod’s class. At that point and time I really blamed Rod for my target panic (I will explain this later).

Determined to overcome target panic I ended up taking one of the Joel Turner clinics. Long story short Joel convinced my into shooting with a clicker. Joel’s class really focuses more on the mental side of the shot sequence than it does on the form side of it.

This put me at close to year three in shooting a stick bow and I was seeing some improvement in my shot, but not enough in my mind. I also started working with a level III Olympic coach. This coach really preached the importance of aiming and convinced me into shooting with a sight on my bow.
Somewhere, somehow, sometime in my third year it finally started to click for me. My target panic was coming from not using an aiming method and my shot sequence was starting to come together.

Without trying to drag this out too long, I will try to explain why I feel it started to come together for me.
1) Rods class taught me to develop a shot sequence.
2) Joels class taught me to develop a habit of not shooting a less than perfect arrow.
3) Working with the oly coaches taught me the importance of aiming. I know opinions will vary on this.

So, now if anything in my shot sequence is not perfect I do not release the arrow. Also, I do not start to aim or pick a spot until I have, 1)reached anchor, 2) transferred to my back muscles, if anything is less than perfect up to this point I let down. Once I am good with these I then commit to the shot and aim, expand and release. Really what Rod’s class done was bring all my bad habitats to the surface and provided me with a way to work on them. It was probably the best money that I have spent so far. I still work with the level III oly coach, but Rods class probably taught me more than anything. Joel’s class was great for understanding the mental part of the shot sequence.

I really think that the large majority of poor archers are poor because they have not learned a proper shot sequence and have not learned how to properly execute it.

 

[JCT]

Yes yes,
That is my mode of practice, per se, I don't use tennis balls though. I have some brown rubber type
balls I got from a pet store. I like to stay away from bright targets as there aren't bright spots on most critters.
I do firmly believe in the one arrow at a time thing though. I shoot 1 arrow every morning before leaving for work,
My bow stays right at the back door and I just leave the arrow in the 3D whitetail target until I get home most times.
Buddy of mine turned me on to the one arrow a day no matter what thing years ago and I like it. I don't care for standard archery targets. I have a large round hay bale I like (needs replaced again). It's good practice to walk all around it at different yardages and picking single blades of straw out on it just as if it were a hair on an animal.
That's how I practice shooting. I believe in practicing hunting also, stalking groundhogs and other lesser critters in the of season is good practice and hell of a lot of fun. (for those who have those type critters in their area)
Good questions
JT

 

[PJG]

I truly feel that stump shooting and small game shooting are two of the greatest practice tools a traditional archer can use.

 

[Kebler]

PJG,

can an you explain the aiming at full draw after anchor, are u talking instinctive shooting? I think that's where I struggle.

i think it's safe to say we know where we want to shot the critter long before we see him, and thru are subconscious mind draw and point that direction without any thought.

its next focusing and settling on a small area to aim that becomes a problem for me.

any insight on what ur mean this could help me with the last 2 seconds where I choke in the woods

 

[elkhunter71]

Kebbler for me its like throwing a baseball I look at the spot I want the arrow to go and I mean really look. I don't aim with anything. If you ever want to see if your tuely a instictive on a very dark night place a lit candle down range and shoot at it. It needs to be dark enough that you can't see the front of your arrow while shooting.

 

[Kebler]

Copy, I pretty sure I shot instivticey I don't gap or use the arrow ,I can wear out stumps, 3d shoots and shot pretty well.

But put life animal in front of me I have trouble sealing the deal.


its not the bows fault or the difficulty of the stick, but with out a aiming reference it can be allot harder to execute the shot when it's high stakes

im looking for something else, I stuggled the last 2 years, missed and made some bad shots.

I have changed my anchor and now use a dynamic release with a follow thru, before I used a static release and know I was collapsing esp in a tree shooting down.

im just thinking if I can train my brain to narrow down the spot after I'm at full draw or during it might help me in hunting, deer and elk and critters move turn sideways and u can lose your intended spot

 

[PJG]

Kebbler,

I used to shoot like elkhunter71, but found out real quick that method of shooting did not produce the accuracy that I was after. I like the baseball analogy, the truth of the matter is that throwing a baseball is not that accurate. Try to throw a baseball at the same candle at night, if you can hit it every time you should probably sign a contract with the Yankees. I know some guys can shoot accurately this way, I am not one of them.

What I have learned is that a sequence is a process and you cannot short circuit the steps in the process. Most guys start aiming before they even draw the bow, by the time they hit anchor if they are lucky they have used up all of their concentration and cannot hold onto the string any longer and bam the arrow is on its way, regardless if the arrow was on target or not. When I started out and missed a target I naturally thought that it was my form that was the problem, certainly the arrow must have been on line with the target, my eyes where looking at the target. When I ended up putting a site on my target bow, my thoughts on this changed. My arrows where going exactly where they were pointed, its just that a site showed my that often times the arrows where pointed in a different direction than I was looking. I ended up putting a SRF site on my hunting bow for a year, shot an elk that year using that site.

Since then what I have learned is aiming is one step in the shot sequence. So, what I do now is 1) look at the target, I am not picking a spot at this point, 2) draw the bow 3) anchor, 4) transfer to back muscles 5) pick a spot and aim (I use my site picture rather than the arrow) now, I shoot split finger 6) expand until release. What this does is insure I take enough time to make sure that I am online with the target and feel confident in my aim. For some reason aiming is a dirty word in the trad circles, but the truth of the matter is sites on a trad bow were frequent in the early 60's and 70's. Heck even Howard used the arrow to aim, that was the whole point in his split vision aiming approach. Howard knew that arrow was on target all the time.

Anyway, I hope this makes sense. Like I said this is my approach through trial and error, and this is what works best for me.

 

[elkhunter71]

I agree 100% in shot sequence. If you are not consistent with your shot sequence you will not be accurate and you have to find the same anchor every time. Everyone has a different sequence you have to find what works for you.

 

[JCT]

Myself, I shoot the split vision method Howard Hill described. Didn't realise it until once myself and several other guys ( G. Fred, Tom Parsons and David Waldrop)
(yes I just name dropped,sorry, we shared a hog lease for some years,), were shooting around camp and Fred mentioned hesitating for a millisecond at
full draw and re-aquiring "the spot". Re-aqiure what was lost from the distraction of drawing? AIM! Fred would most likely never admit it being an aiming method but that's what it meant to me and my accuracy jumped that day. Never looked back and since that day, all things being equal, if it's (target, deer, hog, ground hog ect) within 30 yds it is dead. That's my confidence level.
"Sequence" is what I call form I think. Maybe a difference of wording? Does that make sense?
Anyhow, good thread,
JT

 

[winter]

Seems like there is two schools of thought for instinctive shooting. Youre either are an aimer or a shooter. Kind of like the Rod Jenkins vs Larry Yien reference. Rod concentrates on the spot and trusts that the shot routine is so engrained on the blank bale, that the shot will run itself. The Larry and Joel Turner method seems to put the emphasis on the shot and letting the subconscious do the aiming. I seem to do both and cycle back and forth sometimes while at full draw. If I concentrate on the target and burn a hole through it will work really well for a few days and the follow through on the front arm is great. After a while I can feel myself trying to over aim and be too cute. I then switch to getting back to focusing on my back muscles and after a few shots of trusting everything, the shots are just as great as they were when I was in "super aim" mode. Kinda seems like both would work depending on how your brain works.

If you haven't check out Jimmy Blackmon's youtube channel - I would highly recommend it.

 

[Kebler]

Good info

i do lose my concentration on my spot during the draw and anchor.

i am going to work on reauqquring my spot before I finsh my shot sequence instead of trusting nothing has changed

I trurly think this is the missing link in my blotched shots in the woods

 

[Kevin Dill]

The word 'sequence' is often used when describing the process of how we shoot. There is a beginning, middle and end to every shot. Things have to happen in order. The absolute profoundness of this struck me one day when I was having trouble. I began thinking about stance...get it right first, then move on to how the bow is held and get it right. I didn't advance to the next step until I was solid and automatic on the previous steps. I did a lot of bow drawing (with arrow loaded) and no shooting; just draw and focus on anchor...then draw and focus on spot....repeat until burned in to the brain. It was days before I ever released an arrow, but I rebuilt my form and solidified my shot sequence until I was very confident and fully in control of all parts of the shot. I am in no way negating the results of Rod Jenkins or other shooters, but I'm here to tell anyone they do not need someone's book or specific teachings in order to shoot well. All of the steps to shooting a conventional bow are well-known and no secret. If there is a secret, it's being willing to go backwards...slow way down...and take it a step at a time. Start in the spring and you can be sharp by midsummer.

I'll throw a wild one at you guys. I learned not to think about my arrow or worry about where it might hit. In practice, I literally ignore my arrow and could care less where it goes. I shoot only for form and never for accuracy. I stopped evaluating the arrow impact and now the only thing I evaluate when shooting is my personal adherence to form and sequence. I work at that and that only...never consider my accuracy. The funny thing is this: The better my form and complete attention to it, the better my accuracy becomes automatically. If I focus on form and totally ignore my arrows/accuracy, it's not uncommon to repeatedly slam the tennis ball at 30-40 yards with my longbow.

I recall a September rove with a good friend....stump shooting and practicing for deer season. As we walked toward a hay bale a big grasshopper flew up in front of us and landed on the bale. Gary said "Kevin...shoot that grasshopper!" I nocked a field point and took a 20 yard shot. Gary was staring at me with huge eyes and said "You nailed him! Wow! Shot his head off!" I said "Really? Oh well...I was going for the lungs....."

 

[Brandon Pattison]

winter, I didn't read everything in this thread but your second to last paragraph in your first post is your answer.

Nothing goes to waste in nature. That is not a reason to be haphazard though. Perfectly shot animals sometimes don't die.

I've shot almost 60Xs with my compound hunting rig (full weight and full quiver). Last week I shot 251 with my recurve but I'm still working on a few things. My gap is still 18" low. If I can get great arrow flight out of the recurve, the compound becomes backup.

 

[elkstabber]

I read through most of these messages and it really hurt. Deep down. There is no ethical question about the effectiveness of the stickbow. I'm having a hard time understanding how a hunter would even question a stickbow's effectiveness.

Fortunately, Kevin Dill pointed out that the problem was a misunderstanding about accuracy. Only when an archer can shoot well enough should he hunt with his bow. The type of bow doesn't matter.

Yes, I've been to 3D shoots where the compound guys absolutely blow the trad guys out of the water. But I belong to a trad club where we truly push each other and with practice the trad shooters are great! Not as accurate as compound shooters but really good.

The pattern that I've seen is the best 3D shooters are not the most successful hunters. The best 3D trad shooters typically use more complicated aiming methods and that hurts them in hunting situations. The most successful hunters (at least in my club) use a more "instinctive" method and on their best days can only beat 3/4 of the guys with aiming methods. I'm not saying one is better or worse but there's no doubt in my club of 60 or so guys that there are pros and cons to the two shooting methods.

I've never attended a shooting class but have shot with some great shooters and done a lot of reading. The authors that I learned the most from are Asbell, Conrads, Ferguson, and Camera. Fred Bear and Howard Hill's books also have some shooting tips. But my accuracy hit a new level when I read a book by Jay Kidwell called "Instinctive Archery Insights". I now concentrate on the little spot and hit it, regardless of where I imagine that little spot. Even if I miss that imaginary little spot the arrow doesn't' miss by enough to matter.

Kevin Dill's practice with shooting tennis balls at varying distances is spot on. I find that stump shooting is my favorite hunting practice. That's when you simply walk through woods or fields and shoot at any old leaf, flower, clay bank, rotten stump, whatever. Using a judo head you will recover your arrow most every time as long as you don't hit anything too hard that breaks the arrow. With a couple of friends taunting and pushing each other it is a lot of fun and you'll all improve.

All bow shooters (compound or trad) need to stay within their effective range. For a trad shooter that effective range might be 20 yards for one hunter and 35 for the next. We've chosen to bow hunt because of the additional challenge, right? Trad equipment increases that challenge.

Here are photos of my last two Western kills.

View attachment 23251

Wild Arizona cow buffalo at 13 yards. Only went 100 yards.

View attachment 23252

New Mexico mule deer at 30 yards. Went about 80 yards.

Enjoy the traditional equipment! Practice hunting conditions. Keep it fun and you'll never go back!