Ethical question - stickbow

[brunse]

First, I suggest winter enter the international scene. Nothing can top an Olympic gold medal.

Second, many times shot presentations in the western mountains and eastern hills can be particularly good for either a traditional or compound shooter. Sometimes not both. I personally would have benefited many times during elk season had I brought my recurve. Even a few times with white tails in the east. I generally leave it at home because I do not have the confidence to shoot past 18 yards. Hopefully that will change in the future as my hunting style changes as well.

Good luck and I am serious about chasing an Olympic gold medal. I have a few friends in various sports to chase them and it seems like a great ride!

 

[Coveyleader]

It's a fine line, and many times Traditional hunters base everything on "Method of take". I have hunted with some big name, highly successful (defined by animals taken) Traditional guys, and have conversed with others. Every one of them wounded animals, and sometimes the rates were pretty high. Higher than I could morally stand. I don't even like looking back on some of those hunts. When I see those same guys penning articles in magazines, websites etc, it's hard to erase those long, dead end blood trails and horrible shots in the name of a traditional bow.

Someone posted that South Fox had quite a few misses on some of his videos, I bet there were some hits too that went on the "Cut" footage. It's simply the nature of the beast. Hunting with a traditional bow is a challenge, there is no such thing as a slam dunk shot that's for sure. I wish you luck in your decision, neither is wrong.

 

[bowhnter7]

"Fella's, I'm torn. The two shots I had with my recurve/longbow were the most rewarding shots of my life. I watched both deer tip over. But is it worth the risk? "

Yes in my opinion it is.

A person can be concerned about wounding game with any weapon choice. Maybe you yourself have already seen or done it. People should do what makes them happy or chose what they feel is rewarding to themselves.

 

[2blade]

I grew up shooting recurves but when it came time to hunt I picked up a compound. 8 years later I went to recurves and longbows for 12 years and have taken my best deer and a few elk with them. I never lost an animal with traditional bows, you must know your limitations and stick to it. About 10 years ago I moved and was no longer able to practice as much so I went back to compounds. I have lost 2 deer shooting compounds so for me, shooting traditional is no worse than a compound. You can lose an animal with either set up.

Currently, I am seriously thinking about going back to traditional. I shoot at least 5 days a week weather permitting and am shooting better than I have ever shot before. If I do it, I will take the compound as a back up.

 

[Kevin Dill]

This thread makes me think of a friend....

Jerry killed several deer with a recurve and was a very good shot on game. In the backyard and with people watching he was simply horrible. It was murder walking around a bow shoot with him...he was constantly beating himself up for blowing shots. He never blew a deer shot that I knew about...and I knew a lot about him. We spent hundreds of days afield back then. He never took a deer-shot beyond 20 yards ever. He passed a huge buck at almost 30 yards and talked about it a lot...then went to a compound next year. Said he made a conscious, logical decision to increase his range and accuracy...so be it. Mid-November and we were sitting in a diner having lunch. He tells me that he rattled a hammer-sized buck into a scrape that morning...had this buck steaming and throwing dirt 10' behind the scrape, and all of it at 12 yards. A total no-brainer scenario; the buck is stretched out and working a limb as Jerry draws and aims. Good release and he watches the arrow flash across the buck's back and throw a shower of hair up as the buck speeds away. Superficial cut and no blood trail. As Jerry is telling me this he's shaking his head sadly. "That buck was big and there's no way I'd have missed him with my recurve...no way. I thought the compound was the way to go, but that thinking just cost me the biggest buck of my life".

I asked him what his plan was and he didn't know right then. Next season he was back hunting with his familiar recurve AND he went right back to dropping deer. A few years later he called me and I helped him recover a fabulous typical 12-point with 26-1/2" main beams. One wood arrow at 16 yards and a 60 yard death run.

Bows don't fail. People fail with their bows. People also tend to take the easier way to accuracy and success, but sometimes 'easier' will fail too.

 

[Kebler]

I lost a deer this year bad shot with longbow

i know or heard of 7 guys who lost deer with a compund the ones I do know are good shots

 

[Nick Muche]

Kevins posts on this thread are worth a read...or two.

Thanks Kevin, you've help make sense of a few things on my mind as of late.

 

[elkyinzer]

Ethics are personal. Do what you want. I would hope anyone out there winging multiple deer a year is doing some soul searching, regardless if it's with a spear or stickbow or long range sniper rifles. Just like anything in life there is a bell curve with some exceptional trad archers and some that are totally clueless and the vast majority somewhere in the middle. You hunt long enough, you're going to lose an animal. There's not much we can do about that.

BUT, that said I think there are a couple exceptions where we have to really vigilantly police our own community for our own well being. One example being when you broadcast it to the world you are held to a higher standard.

 

[gdpolk]

I am absolutely comfortable hunting with my longbow. My accuracy is acceptable to distances 2.5-3x longer than my typical kill is taken at. For me bowhunting isn't about seeing how far you can kill an animal at; it is about seeing how close you can get without being busted and THAT is what makes it fun.

 

[MadDawg]

Just learn to shoot... and use a Simmons broadhead then even bad shots will be devastating.

 

[jspradley]

If it's really about ethics and coming as close as possible to gauranteeing an ethical shot you can't just say "this is about archery only" and you have to include firearms because guns are simply a more lethal, more "ethical" option. There's just no way around it.

With that said, if you want to hunt with a stickbow, get good and do it. Yeah your risk of wounding is higher but it be what it be.

 

[elkduds]

Less technology = more discipline in shot selection to avoid wounding and losing game. Can you resist the urge to take an 80% shot?

 

[jorgensen.travis]

I've really been thinking a lot about being ethical with a stickbow.... it's my feeling that most "trad" shooters are pretty terrible shots and get lucky sometimes, but most have no business shooting past 8 yards. Maybe that ruffles some feathers but I'm serious.

I learned how to shoot a recurve when I was 13 months old - moved to compound around 8, competed at 16, made the US Collegiate archery team a few years back and have now progressed back to dabbling in the "trad" world. I've shot 2 deer with a recurve and a longbow and have made perfect shots on these whitetails from treestands at 10 and 17 yards respectively. I practice 3-4 times a week and feel like I have reaally really good form. I shoot a clicker and know the ins and outs of tuning. All that being said, I only can hit a softball at 20 yards about 80% of the time. I'm probably better than most I'd suspect, and I'm not at all happy with that accuracy. I took my trad bows whitetail hunting the first year with a 10 yard maximum and connected on a beautiful doe. Last year my limit was 20, and shot a really nice 8pt at 17 yards. At the time I was shooting really well, and could keep 95% of my arrows in a softball sized group at 20. But honestly, who can shoots softball sized groups every time from 20 yards?

A great friend of mine is the best shot I know with a recurve and even he botches shots at 20 and 15 yards - although rare, it still happens.

My reason for this rant is this: My favorite hunt is alpine mulies at 12,000ft. I do it every year and have shot two great bucks with my compound. I'm debating taking the stick, but am questioning the ethicalness. I know it can be done - South Cox seems to have great success at it. If you watch his video he also misses a lot of deer at close range and could have easily wounded them. I can guarantee if he'd be using a compound those deer would be dead and not potentially wounded.

Is it fair that we chose to handicap ourselves by shooting stickbows - or is it selfish of us? I can honestly shoot the same groups at 90 yards with my compound that most would be happy with at 20 with a recurve. Seems selfish that we would risk wounding something just because we want the thrill to harvest an animal with our stickbows. Even if we practice all summer - stump shoot around the mountains and feel good about things - theres still a much higher likely hood of wounding something. I watch the highly respected "trad" archers like Fred Eichler who when hunting the high places, they just want to "get an arrow into them". I'm torn when I hear things like that. Would I shoot a dall sheep in the butt just to slow him down so I can get closer and shoot him again while he's staring at me. I don't think I would. And I really respect these guys. Even Fred Bear was known to launch arrows at running game hoping to get lucky.

Some may argue that bowhunting is inherently risky business compared to a rifle, and if you're worried so much about wounding, that just shoot a gun and be done with it. I'm talking archery only....

Fella's, I'm torn. The two shots I had with my recurve/longbow were the most rewarding shots of my life. I watched both deer tip over. But is it worth the risk?

I just wanted to write down my thoughts and see what you guys think. I apologize for the rambling.

Think of all the lives that have been saved by bad shots. I would bet if we could ask the animal if he wants you to use a rifle, crossbow, compound, or selfbow, he’d choose selfbow, because he had the best chance of survival. Ethical discussions have always been around, but recently it’s gotten ridiculous with public personalities acting like they’re saving the world one hunt at a time. Let’s not loose track of what we’re doing out there. We are in the business of killing them. If you need to lie to yourself about conservation and ethics in order to justify killing an animal, maybe you should take up golf.


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[Kevin Dill]

Realize that when hunting was solely about eating (or starving) there was no such thing as ethics. Wounded or killed...the attempt to kill was going to happen. Failure meant hunger. "I refused the shot because it was the wrong angle and a tad far"....might get you reassigned as head berry-picker for the clan.

Ethics in killing game (as in legal hunting) is truly a latecomer to the equation. Ethics are a luxury available to those who have the time and lifestyle to evaluate and debate HOW they (or we) should behave toward animals we want to kill. And that happens primarily because we no longer have the need to hunt/kill to survive. As well-fed civilized people, we've made killing wild animals an option, and in return we've opened a door to Pandora's Box.

I'm as guilty as anyone of thinking in ethical terms...maybe more than most. On the one hand I hunt with a weapon some might eschew as being too primitive and likely to wound. Unethical? Well...what if I shot a rifle which made extreme long range sniper-kills a normal thing? The game animal has little chance to evade me once I've located and 'acquired' him. Is that ethical hunting? I've learned to be careful about passing judgment on others' ethics because it's definitely a 2-way street. The one thing I will always believe is ethical (and important to me) is to be accurate and effective with your chosen weapon. If you've ever walked up on a gut-hit animal about 4 hours later....when it's somewhere in that netherworld of slow suffering 'still alive but death is waiting'....and felt almost completely miserable, then you get it.

 

[johnhenry]

If you don't go out and hunt and fish for or raise your daily meat then you are buying from big Ag and how do you think them animals like what they go through. The ethics of the alternative should come into play in this discussion. Do you think that gut shot animal would have rather been raised on a farm and ended its life in a commercial slaughterhouse? Its killing to live and its never easy - at least for me - even when its a carrot.

Do it the best way you possibly can at the time and have gratitude and respect for the life you are taking - even when its a carrot.

 

[Btaylor]

The one thing I will always believe is ethical (and important to me) is to be accurate and effective with your chosen weapon. If you've ever walked up on a gut-hit animal about 4 hours later....when it's somewhere in that netherworld of slow suffering 'still alive but death is waiting'....and felt almost completely miserable, then you get it.

I may be an exception here but any discussion of ethics should start and stop right here. Too many folks want to throw around the word ethics when the discussion at hand really has nothing to do with ethics. Way too many folks pick one weapon over another as being more ethical when nothing could be further from the truth. A gun for dang sure is not more lethal than a bow and it is not even remotely up for debate in my mind. If you think it is go sit and watch a dove field or a waterfowl hunt and see how many birds get hit but are not recovered. I would also venture that big game wounding by firearm far exceeds that of the bow simply from the law of averages and the significantly greater number of firearms hunters.

 

[Shawn Hultquist]

I am absolutely comfortable hunting with my longbow. My accuracy is acceptable to distances 2.5-3x longer than my typical kill is taken at. For me bowhunting isn't about seeing how far you can kill an animal at; it is about seeing how close you can get without being busted and THAT is what makes it fun.

i am right here with Glenn the closer withut getting caught is more challenging to me